Phase C is basically a free win for Axis
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Watching these forums reminds me of the good ole days back in EE's time frame, and a bit of ALB's balancing act as well. (edit: well, I guess RD as well now that I think about it) I see so much of the same kinds of internet drama going on here as I did back then.
One major let down however, the memes. You guys are slacking for SDN memes. I keep waiting to see something that would rival the glory of Wargame ones but so far... I am disappoint.
One major let down however, the memes. You guys are slacking for SDN memes. I keep waiting to see something that would rival the glory of Wargame ones but so far... I am disappoint.
Yeah, I remember the first big balance patch for ALB being entitled "Vox Populi".
Nothing has really changed.
Nothing has really changed.
Yeah, and the claims that MM wanted uber Germans to back up his Frenchmen in game and yadda yadda.
Yes, with exception of 21st panzer, almost all german units had their heavy elements join the battle quite a few days later than infantry and support elements.
We seem to have a different definition of few in number.
ok, i take france u take lehr. try not to quit by the 8 minute mark. we can even bring friends and do a 2v2 ^-^
Interestingly, the Germans would counter-attack asap after every Allied attack. Any Allied gain had to be challenged was the German SOP. While it was frustrating for Allied commanders they quickly realized how big of a boon it was as it was predictable and bled the Germans dry. The fact the German army was mostly under/over-age and poor conscripts only made things worse for the Germans. Allied commanders would note SS bayonet charges against fortified positions that ended instantly, tank commanders who would turn their tank around when spooked, etc.
Far from the 2* vet troops the German decks have now, the counter attack mechanic was a great way for the Allies to annihilate poorly trained and led German formations and ultimately led to the success of the Operation Cobra and the race to Antwerp as the Germans had lost almost all of their reserves and decent troops. Of course the brutalization and mass executions within the German army and it's very high rate of what we would now call PTSD may have been another factor.
I really think a huge issue is that most of the overpowering advantages the Allies had in WW2 were what video games would call "soft stats". Reliable vehicles and weapons systems, a good logistical system, a functioning wartime economy, actually caring about your troops welfare, etc. These are incredibly hard to model in a game but extremely important in actual warfare.
I think with the latest patch, Eugen has stated that they will be following the method of Allies need massive micro and Germans get super-weapons (Q+left click). It's frustrating, and can be pretty awful to play, but I'm hoping the modding community can do something about it because the engine shows a lot of promise.
You're spot on with the counter-attack comment. German doctrine was that the best way to cope with a break-in/break through was to attack it head on, as fast as possible.
It's not commonly known that 9SS and 10SS Panzers were also largely staffed by HJ, around veteran cadre, not just 12SS. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that all the decent troops went down in the Falaise pocket...3FJ marched out, IISS Pzr Korps was fit enough to fight another two major battles a month later, with some of the troops actually reaching the Arnhem area on foot and the occasional hitchhiking.
And you are perfectly correct re 'soft stats', but the tactical issues are often overlooked as well...while the war in the west went along, the standard of training, fitness and simply quality of the german ground forces really degenerated overall, but is pretty much entirely ignored by game developers, due to this 'german good/allies poor' approach. Yes, western allied tanks were outgunned, yes, they could be out driven on soft ground; but their radios worked, they generally had fuel and ammo, their equipment was reliable, and from November '44 onwards, their crews were becoming more experienced than german replacements, and were becoming better led, at lower levels, as well.
I'll just clarify something as well, based on that last point...a week or so ago someone threw up some stats showing M4's outperformed panthers, and copped a bit of a ribbing...to a certain extent that was correct, but not at the period of Normandy, the performance issue for the panthers was a serious problem in the Lorraine, and after the Bulge, but mostly in freshly raised or heavily rebuilt formations, such as the independently raised panzer brigades (the '100' series).
I'm not keen on the 'serious micro vs select and click uber weapon' game...it becomes unfun. But, what the hey...it's Eugen's dollar and rep I'm watching dwindle every time I see the player count drop in the evenings. Just to show the point, I just checked the number of players ingame at the moment: 333 connected, 197 in chat.
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Heh, nothing as persuasive as a good old pvp me noob approach. But this can hardly serve as a general measurement.
Some ppl still dont understand games are not "balanced" to their skill level, be it good or bad...their dick waving contest is quite funny.
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(Two pages back reply)
To keep the game references up:
Germany lost because they only got +2 conquest points at the start of their war against Russia but with a 30 slot deck against a 200 slots deck and never could push over that +2. When their failed their rush, they were doing a sitzkrieg on that side, spending most of their phase C income in the east and little in the west.
Germany lost because it had less deck slots both in the east and in the west (and in africa).
Fight, fight, fight...
You disqualified yourself with that statement... what a pity!
Thankfully, this is not an arse kissign contest but seeing the + and - givent to ppls comments i cant but laugh.
Allies have early game advantage, the amount of Axis OP crying is hilarious...
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Just stop, the fact panzer lehr can survive phase A doesnt make Axis godly...something you imply, claiming "skill" and what not.
"Rubbish, I can easily hold my own as Lehr (the weakest faction in A) at the beginning, and pump out KT's till the cows come home"
Pumping King tigers with lehr ...please just stop....
Right on. Also the whole proliferation of kampfgruppen in Normandy was largely a consequence of the destruction of anywhere from battalion to regimental and division-sized units; the kampfgruppen were really the leftovers of larger destroyed units in all but name.
As an example of the degradation of German panzer crews, No.2 Op Research did an indepth analysis of an air attack on a German armoured column just after COBRA to evaluate the effectiveness of airpower, but what they found out is that a very large proportion of the Panthers in the column had actually been abandoned, and were otherwise still serviceable. The crews hadn't even attempted to destroy them themselves.
What I find most bizarre, is that Eugen crafted the phase system specifically to simulate this attack-counter attack dichotomy, but then insist on making all the matches meeting engagements anyway.
It helps to not just compare Allies vs Axis, but division to division (yes I realize there is no mirror matching). The weakest Phase A deck in the game is actually the Allies' 3AD with the lowest income and one of the lowest amounts of Phase A units with stars. In contrast, two of the strongest Phase A divisions in the game are the 3fj and Windhund, which are both Axis divisions. Each side has divisions with different strengths. In fact, 3fj were so powerful before the "Balance for All" patch that a very large portion of the patch was mostly focused around nerfing them*.
I think the issue the OP brings up is the fact that both sides have divisions that can play hardball in Phase A, but the Allies don't actually get one that can dance with the Phase C powerhouses that Axis has. Their "best" Phase C strategy against Axis heavy armor is mostly just stalling, which wouldn't be an issue if the game wasn't team oriented, but the game encourages people to cover each others' weaknesses. This is where Allies vs Axis comparisons hold water, as players can assist each other and negate/reduce their division weaknesses. This essentially means that both sides have the ability to push in A and B, but only Axis has the ability to really do it in C.
Essentially, you can't argue for the mostly exclusive Axis Phase C advantage when there are divisions on both sides that are designed to excel in both Phase A and B.
*And remember, Eugen has access to division W/L ratios and the like.
This is why the game is withering away for me. I'm getting bored with this dynamic of either 'Grab as much as you can and then hang on for dear life for 20 minutes' playing as Allies or 'Grab what you can and then roll for 20 minutes' as Axis.
It can be fun but it isn't going to keep me around.