Phase C is basically a free win for Axis

[LegioX]

Almost 150 games in, this is what I have concluded. Allies have until end of phase B (If that) to make any push and hold what you got with +1 map control. If the axis are winning by end of phase B, then it's an instant win for them, unless they do something really REALLY stupid. I mean I'm here watching this 3v3 I'm playing and I'm fighting 3 star Panthers/3 star Kingtigers. Like i said before, unless they do something really stupid or just plain noob, against any axis player who has a basic idea of what to do, will always win.

I mean you can stun the axis tanks, but why? You are just delaying the inevitable, b/c with 3 stars they will quickly get back into the fight. Now if my tanks get bombed (lets say with the 3 star M10s in 2ID) they will 70-80% of the time die, due to being open top. Even with AA net around them they will still get bombs off.

I'm seriously wondering how the hell the allies can win a conquest fight. They seriously lack any units to push back the map once the Axis gain a foothold. Now with Axis, they have the perfect tanks to absorb allied fire to give other units a chance to push up.

The game is basically turning into a.... Allies rush in phase A to gain a foothold, try to gain more ground in phase B. Then hold on for dear life in phase C, and hope the timer runs out before the game concludes to a draw.

 

[LKHERO]

Can you show me where in the game you have found 3-star Panthers? I'd love to add some to my deck

 

[wingren013]

Uh don't engage German armor in a straight slugfest. Shermans are the superior tank to Panthers but you need to use their advantages to win.

As for the KT. Ignore it. It's a single tank, moves incredibly slow, and dies when it enters a bocage. Not to mention being worth four minutes of income. Yes its strong and can push very effectively, but its not an I win button.

Also if your opponents are spending that much on tanks they likely lack support in other areas. Take advantage of that with your infantry and light vehicles.

 

[Karlburg]

I do think the allied armored divs tend to lack strong phase C play in games where it's still a question because the vet isn't universal and they tend to be inferior in many aspects but i wouldn't call it a free game.

They don't have anything particularly scary on offer to the better axis divisions.

 

[LegioX]

You know I wouldn't be so salty about phase C, if the allied division had some vet units. there are sometimes where I get the jump on some axis tanks, but even with a command unit nearby vet 1 or 2 star tanks will miss the first shot, which sometimes will be only shot you get. Those vet 3 star m10s in the 2ID are nice, man you have to baby it.

The point with KT...it's very hard to just "forget about it" the range on it is insane and very hard to bypass it when another axis division will probably have a KT or even 88 waiting on you. The whole point is that the axis have so many options to counter allied armor. Allies have very few and what options we do have is vet 2 star at best. I mean a 3 star KT basically one shots everything.

 

[Karlburg]

I also think that the allied armor late game plans work better in 1v1 and most 2v2 games where there's room and you can't really float so much.

 

[IS-2]

Almost 150 games in, this is what I have concluded. Allies have until end of phase B (If that) to make any push and hold what you got with +1 map control. If the axis are winning by end of phase B, then it's an instant win for them, unless they do something really REALLY stupid. I mean I'm here watching this 3v3 I'm playing and I'm fighting 3 star Panthers/3 star Kingtigers. Like i said before, unless they do something really stupid or just plain noob, against any axis player who has a basic idea of what to do, will always win.

I mean you can stun the axis tanks, but why? You are just delaying the inevitable, b/c with 3 stars they will quickly get back into the fight. Now if my tanks get bombed (lets say with the 3 star M10s in 2ID) they will 70-80% of the time die, due to being open top. Even with AA net around them they will still get bombs off.

I'm seriously wondering how the hell the allies can win a conquest fight. They seriously lack any units to push back the map once the Axis gain a foothold. Now with Axis, they have the perfect tanks to absorb allied fire to give other units a chance to push up.

The game is basically turning into a.... Allies rush in phase A to gain a foothold, try to gain more ground in phase B. Then hold on for dear life in phase C, and hope the timer runs out before the game concludes to a draw.

axis is strongest in 3v3 because it has the greatest unit density outside of 10v10 colombelles... making it easier to use their superior arty and tanks. 3v3 is clown game on a lot of maps.

phase C axis is also only really strong with 12th SS and lehr, which should be pushed back by the time phase C comes around meaning you have positional advantage with your tanks and ATG and can create crossfire on them since they WILL be pushing into your territory as the clock is against them.

against these super panzer divisions if you are playing an early game allied div (which is most of them) you should NOT be content with a +1 hold through phase A and B!!!! especially as infantry centric decks you need to push for the kill in early stages because you have an enormous advantage there... keep forcing good engagements, forcing these divisions to spend money as they are attritted. their paltry income stacks the odds against them in these kinds of scenarios, even if you are making poor trades in this phase your income difference can nullify the difference in loss rate.. a WON phase A for panzer lehr is a phase A where there is little engagement, and at most a +1 tick for the enemy and they let you stack income for an immediate phase B panther/konigs. i mean FFS, in phase A lehr has puma and you can roll out M10A1 (LOL), shermans and cromwells against this...

this goes back to what i have said in the past, too many players are afraid to attack and are happy to see "+1" on conquest meter, so they sit and do nothing when they have the advantage.... maybe buying some worthless artillery/AA/planes while nothing happens. playing france/poland against lehr/12th SS is an absolute club fest for those first 10 minutes. because not only do you have superior units, you have superior income. phase B for france is just continual clubbing against the axis because you will always have greater territory -> chuck M4A3 76 on some bocage with commander -> any axis tank is gonna get rekt by digital fire control side shot, konigs especially because they are slow as shit XD. and quite frankly i have never found konigs to be worth the 380 points, EVER, unless i am fighting idiot noobs who sit and duel it, which is just hilarious to see. fighting against these divisions also gets significantly easier on less open maps.

 

[Mr Hyena]

I would say the problem is Windhund. Having a strong C phase is fine, but if they get divisions with strong A phase too, unlike Phase C for Allies then that seems imbalanced.

 

[LegioX]

axis is strongest in 3v3 because it has the greatest unit density outside of 10v10 colombelles... making it easier to use their superior arty and tanks. 3v3 is clown game on a lot of maps.

phase C axis is also only really strong with 12th SS and lehr, which should be pushed back by the time phase C comes around meaning you have positional advantage with your tanks and ATG and can create crossfire on them since they WILL be pushing into your territory as the clock is against them.

against these super panzer divisions if you are playing an early game allied div (which is most of them) you should NOT be content with a +1 hold through phase A and B!!!! especially as infantry centric decks you need to push for the kill in early stages because you have an enormous advantage there... keep forcing good engagements, forcing these divisions to spend money as they are attritted. their paltry income stacks the odds against them in these kinds of scenarios, even if you are making poor trades in this phase your income difference can nullify the difference in loss rate.. a WON phase A for panzer lehr is a phase A where there is little engagement, and at most a +1 tick for the enemy and they let you stack income for an immediate phase B panther/konigs. i mean FFS, in phase A lehr has puma and you can roll out M10A1 (LOL), shermans and cromwells against this...

this goes back to what i have said in the past, too many players are afraid to attack and are happy to see "+1" on conquest meter, so they sit and do nothing when they have the advantage.... maybe buying some worthless artillery/AA/planes while nothing happens. playing france/poland against lehr/12th SS is an absolute club fest for those first 10 minutes. because not only do you have superior units, you have superior income. phase B for france is just continual clubbing against the axis because you will always have greater territory -> chuck M4A3 76 on some bocage with commander -> any axis tank is gonna get rekt by digital fire control side shot, konigs especially because they are slow as shit XD. and quite frankly i have never found konigs to be worth the 380 points, EVER, unless i am fighting idiot noobs who sit and duel it, which is just hilarious to see. fighting against these divisions also gets significantly easier on less open maps.

Unless your on comms with your teammates this is impossible. It really takes coordination on allied side to push like your saying in phase A. To many pubs who play solo and don't work together. For example I played a game yesterday where I pushed the panze ler guy back hard, but got rekt when everyone on his team 3v1 me. Obviously my teammates did not help.

 

[Fyras]

Unless your on comms with your teammates this is impossible. It really takes coordination on allied side to push like your saying in phase A. To many pubs who play solo and don't work together. For example I played a game yesterday where I pushed the panze ler guy back hard, but got rekt when everyone on his team 3v1 me. Obviously my teammates did not help.

So you are saying bad teamplay is a balancing issue? Yeah, there are those games, where the AI would be a better teammate than an actual player. In your game you obviously had 2 teamates who were 100% clueless.

IF you play your cards correctly (like it was already stated: keeping up the pressure on Panzer Divs in Phase A and B), dealing with the occasional heavy tank is not a huge ordeal: A bomber or heavy artillery strike + a tank combo can deal with every KT. As long as it is not stressed, it is an almost unbeatable bastion. As soon as it is retreating, it is easy prey because of the slow speed.

Of course if you let a Panzerlehr Division build up a 3 KT + support tanks doom stack... well it is probably gg indeed. But then you did poorly, while he was waiting for more then 1000 points...

I myself played the first 200 games almost exclusively Axis - so the playstyle of Allied Tank Divisions was akward at first - you simply have to realize that they play a whole different way. Is it a greater hussel then q-moving your heavies down an open field? Perhaps. Is it unbalanced? I don't think so.

 

[Herr_Robert]

I would say that it depends alot on the map as well as the overall skill of the players. The Germans are strong on open maps, and it can be very difficult to push against the 12th SS in particular (controlled by a decent player) on open ground since they have cheap infantry and get access to plenty of heavy tanks already in phase B. Also, the Allies require more micromanagement to play, so in a game filled with players who are average or below average in terms of skill the Germans will have the upper hand.

 

[nande]

comeback mechanics )))))))

 

[IS-2]

comeback mechanics )))))))

it is not a comeback mechanic. it is not a mechanic at all, it is asymmetrical balance. a comeback mechanic would be having your income dynamically increase the less units you have on the field, and decrease with more units on the field

 

[Ahab78]

I think that was meant ironic...

nvm if you don't beat Axis hard in A,B even a disabled, deaf and blind albino monkey in a spacesuit could whip the shit out of Allies in C.

 

[Ody_CZ]

it is not a mechanic at all, it is asymmetrical balance

asymmetrical yes .. but balance NO ...

 

[Herrmaus3r]

asymmetrical yes .. but balance NO ...

You're right. Allies should just be better at everything. Why didn't I think of that?

 

[Nerdfish]

Allies were meant to be stronger in the air but they are not.
If Allied phase C dominate the air and axis C dominate tank battles (for comparable divs)
Then there is asymmetric balance in phase C.

 

[Omega_Warrior]

Balance aside I just find this concept so aggrivating from an austhetic point of view. If anything it should be the allies with the late game advantage with the germans trying desperately to hold them back, like in every actual battle since the allies actually won all the battles in the end (except market garden). Instead pretty much every WW2 game seems to play into that wherboo fantasy of german heavy tanks rolling across the open field blasting everything in their way in the most noob friendly point and click sort of way.

I'm not advocating for changing the imbalance over to the allied side, just tired of seeing every WW2 strategy game end with the same silly ahistorical heavy tank dominance.

 

[megalos]

All this phase C BS... Germans can win in B easy with tanks. Hell, Lehr get a KT in B ffs... lol

 

[Uncle_Joe]

For better or worse, tactical games don't tend to model the disadvantages of the German heavies or the logistical advantages of the more standardized Allied armor (and logistics system in general).

Many of the German historical advantages are easy to model (gun penetration, armor thickness etc) but it's much harder to represent the myriad of 'soft' advantages that the Allies enjoyed.

End result: The Germans usually come out looking very strong vis a vis their Allied counterparts.