Petition to restore Najds missionary strength

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

@Wiz This is about a video game. You nerfed a tribal nation, with terrible land and position, and left the strong european nations with the same ideas. If you want it to be balanced, start with europe first. As I said in the post, it effectively only slows down conversions, in the region where conversions are hardest. The only thing it does is nullify that the penalty to converting. I would suggest to take a missionary and buff the 0.5 AT to 1 AT, giving back the 5% missionary strength, replacing the 1 missionary with a merchant.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@Wiz This is about a video game. You nerfed a tribal nation, with terrible land and position, and left the strong european nations with the same ideas. If you want it to be balanced, start with europe first. As I said in the post, it effectively only slows down conversions, in the region where conversions are hardest. The only thing it does is nullify that the penalty to converting. I would suggest to take a missionary and buff the 0.5 AT to 1 AT, giving back the 5% missionary strength, replacing the 1 missionary with a merchant.

I disagree, an extra missionary is more valuable than the extra strength. The nation designer botches the cost ratios on it too but the reality is that unless you're wheezing to convert at all, an extra missionary is going to add more speed. Najd is unique in having 2 missionaries in NI instead of one, just as much as its old 5% strength. Even one extra is a rare bonus, mostly just holy orders otherwise.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

I disagree, an extra missionary is more valuable than the extra strength. The nation designer botches the cost ratios on it too but the reality is that unless you're wheezing to convert at all, an extra missionary is going to add more speed. Najd is unique in having 2 missionaries in NI instead of one, just as much as its old 5% strength. Even one extra is a rare bonus, mostly just holy orders otherwise.

How many missionaries would Najd have max?

1 - base
1 - religious
1 - NI
1 - Mecca
1 - Jerusalem
1 - Rome

Total - 6

6 is more than enough.

This is without policies.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How many missionaries would Najd have max?

1 - base
1 - religious
1 - NI
1 - Mecca
1 - Jerusalem
1 - Rome

Total - 6

6 is more than enough.

This is without policies.

I'm in disagreement with taking religious as Najd, but you're also dropping DotF. Note that in making the argument you are, you're essentially doing the same thing as Wiz . 2 missionaries, like 5% strength, is *unique*. Najd has long been the top converter nation in the game, one of the few tags that doesn't have to give its unity much thought at all, especially since it isn't taxed by reformation spamming religious zeal. Religious, while a great group, is weaker on Sunni than most other picks too because of just how much Sunni you'll be bordering, neutering Deus Vult. I like rushing ADM/Influence sooner as a stronger play for Najd, even with the 2% strength of the beta patch.

Also, let's say you have 5 missionaries. Adding a 6th improves your conversion power by 20%. If you can convert provinces in 12 months, 6th missionary gives you another conversion every year. Extra % strength has to take that many months off your other 5 missionaries to match that. It's unlikely it can, maybe if you're converting really tough stuff and you're talking a whopping bonus like 5%. In most cases extra missionary will drastically outperform even 2% more strength, that's part of the reason non-Abrahamic faiths are trash for conversion compared to Abrahamic, they're capped at 3 missionaries even with religious instead of 6-7.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

I'm in disagreement with taking religious as Najd, but you're also dropping DotF. Note that in making the argument you are, you're essentially doing the same thing as Wiz . 2 missionaries, like 5% strength, is *unique*. Najd has long been the top converter nation in the game, one of the few tags that doesn't have to give its unity much thought at all, especially since it isn't taxed by reformation spamming religious zeal. Religious, while a great group, is weaker on Sunni than most other picks too because of just how much Sunni you'll be bordering, neutering Deus Vult. I like rushing ADM/Influence sooner as a stronger play for Najd, even with the 2% strength of the beta patch.

Also, let's say you have 5 missionaries. Adding a 6th improves your conversion power by 20%. If you can convert provinces in 12 months, 6th missionary gives you another conversion every year. Extra % strength has to take that many months off your other 5 missionaries to match that. It's unlikely it can, maybe if you're converting really tough stuff and you're talking a whopping bonus like 5%. In most cases extra missionary will drastically outperform even 2% more strength, that's part of the reason non-Abrahamic faiths are trash for conversion compared to Abrahamic, they're capped at 3 missionaries even with religious instead of 6-7.

Well, lets say bye to the general maneuver then! We don' t even like that bonus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, lets say bye to the general maneuver then! We don' t even like that bonus.

It's pretty useful actually:

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Military_leader

If you wind up capping maneuver, extra points effectively "spill over". Najd is no Prussia but you should be getting better than the average generic in leader quality, with a high AT even allowing that maneuver to spill over into combat pips.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

It's pretty useful actually:

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Military_leader

If you wind up capping maneuver, extra points effectively "spill over". Najd is no Prussia but you should be getting better than the average generic in leader quality, with a high AT even allowing that maneuver to spill over into combat pips.

It is still not even close to shock or fire. Before it spills over, you effectively get a chance to evade a river/strait crossing.

 

[yerm]

It is still not even close to shock or fire. Before it spills over, you effectively get a chance to evade a river/strait crossing.

It also increases reinforce speed and potentially reduces attrition. Najd starts in the middle of Arabia; attrition actually matters. Leader fire and leader shock are extremely powerful bonuses - there's a reason they cost a fortune in the nation designer. Not being as good as a very similar idea that's totally top tier mil idea and not being good in general are very different things.

 

[Mauer]

Regarding Mesoamerica, I had fun without colony seize at El Dorado release, BUT I actually got lucky enough that the Europeans colonized near me quickly enough to westernize decades before 1600. I've had other games playing in Europe and Asia where the AI stays in Brazil and the Caribbean for centuries and I can't imagine those would have been as much fun if I was playing Aztecs. I think it has to do with the papal bull, where if enough colonizers stay catholic they'll colonize in more regions overall to prevent their claims overlapping.

 

[staycool.]

I am always on the side of the 4th Rome.

Does this mean Serbia can into achievement?

 

[delpiero1234]

but obviously we'd test any change to make sure they're not having trouble converting the Aztecs and such.

Does Paradox now have a QA team? That's great news! So no more broken features in future DLCs since you obviously test them before releasing them, right?

 

[thegreatuniter]

It's not that Najd NEEDS 5% missionary strength. I like unique or special national ideas. Najd's missionary strength combined with two missionaries makes Religious a less mandatory pick, and that makes it different than other countries. I really like unique bits and it just seems that the current trend is to balance everything out. And while that is generally a good thing in games, one of EU4's top qualities for me is the inbalance between nations and these little special things just keep the game interesting for me. Why should all nations have 2% missionary strength? Why not give one nation 1% and another 5%? And all these new national ideas that you guys made are great, but why do all recent nations have 10% land morale when they have land morale in their ideas? Why not give one 20% land morale, but crappy other ideas? Heck, give them 20% land morale and +20% regiment cost, that would be great! I loved that Spain had -1 tolerance of heretics back in the day.

 

[cloudwasher]

Bavaria's bonus is heretic missionary strength, a much weaker modifier.

+3% for colonies is probably excessive though, agreed.

Maybe changing it to +3% missionary strength vs. heathens would be more appropriate, to signify the attempts to convert natives.

 

[Noel84]

I quote: "why do you keep hitting RotW countries with unnecessary nerf after unnecessary nerf?"

I'm glad you realize that your original criticism was false but you should own that instead of pretending you were making another argument all along.

As for Mesoamerica being a drag, I recently finished a Sunset Invasion game and had a blast. I fail to see why Mesoamerican countries require seizing colonies outside coring range to be fun.

But just because YOU had a blast doing next to nothing for decades doesn't mean that most people will have a blast doing so. Can you find anyone else who has a blast doing next to nothing for decades?

 

[bbqftw]

But just because YOU had a blast doing next to nothing for decades doesn't mean that most people will have a blast doing so. Can you find anyone else who has a blast doing next to nothing for decades?

clearly you just gotta play majorly suboptimally to enjoy the mesoamerican experience

 

[ABookshelf]

But just because YOU had a blast doing next to nothing for decades doesn't mean that most people will have a blast doing so. Can you find anyone else who has a blast doing next to nothing for decades?

I've had a lot of fun in my Mesoamerica playthroughs as well.

Also anti-signing this petition

 

[Noel84]

I've had a lot of fun in my Mesoamerica playthroughs as well.

Also anti-signing this petition

care to explain what is fun about the time in between conquering your neighbors and encountering the euros?

 

[ABookshelf]

care to explain what is fun about the time in between conquering your neighbors and encountering the euros?

Sorry I don't have an answer. You kinda took me by surprise here, I didn't know that I needed to justify having fun. I thought I was allowed to just enjoy what I enjoy but apparently not.

Also why are you asking me to justify having fun, but you're not asking anybody who doesn't enjoy Mesoamerican playthroughs to justify themselves? hmm....

 

[PiriReis]

OK, Najd missionary strength has been restored to 0.5%

lol the good old Wiz

 

[Edmon]

Answering "Have you stopped beating your wife"-style questions is not at the top of my agenda, no.

As for why Najd was nerfed, the +5% missionary strength was really only there to make the Jihad achievement possible. With various changes to increase the potential missionary strength, it became not only unnecessary but frankly trivializing in that you didn't need any kind of religious ideas or even piety to convert provinces, so it was reduced to a more reasonable but still quite powerful +2%.

This thread is very silly in tone so acting outraged that I'm not treating it with the utmost dignity is just dumb, sorry.

What if I told you, that this nation was unique because it allowed to you skip religious ideas?

Mind blown. Back to genericide in the name of balance.