Petition to restore Najds missionary strength

[Wizzington]

People have been calling you out on this for months, though, and in dozens of different places besides this thread. Moving the first idea group to ADM 5, taking boats away from New World nations, all the way back to denying unreformed hordes access to decent units. Characterizing this as a "have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife question" basically means you're refusing to accept the premise of the question... but that's not a very polite way of engaging. If you're denying that these changes do in fact constitute a pattern of nerfing RotW, then what do they constitute?

Individual changes done for individual reasons. What you are doing is drawing a conclusion ('Paradox hates ROTW') and then cherrypicking changes that suit your conclusion while ignoring anything done to the contrary such as oh, the massive map rework in 1.8, the removal of power point penalties or the bumping of Chinese tech to starting level 3.

It's a conspiracy theory and I have no interest in engaging with conspiracy theories.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

On the Great List Of Serious Topics That Are Not To Be Joked About, I have a feeling that the decimal point placement of a bonus to the magic Islamization cannon wielded by the Najd sultanate in a computer game does not exactly rank right up there at the top.

Sultanate? Najd isn't an Iqta anymore lol. All hail the sheikdom or some such :/.

Didn't you originally give the colonies that bonus so they could handle the likely heathen conquests without too much hassle? You could just say that it represents the ease conversion from the disease transition in this time period or that it's a nice boost for nations that start behind or some such. For the odd player CN in a junk faith for subjects like Sikh or pagan (the AI usually doesn't take the decision for those and thus gets nothing from decisions to conversion power) it's nice that CNs get 3%.

Individual changes done for individual reasons. What you are doing is drawing a conclusion ('Paradox hates ROTW') and then cherrypicking changes that suit your conclusion while ignoring anything done to the contrary such as oh, the massive map rework in 1.8, the removal of power point penalties or the bumping of Chinese tech to starting level 3.

It's a conspiracy theory and I have no interest in engaging with conspiracy theories.

Some of the "individual reasons" really are odd though, which is why I pointed to the self-inconsistency. The tech 3 and point penalties were massive boosts. I think hordes are still on the wrong side of the ledger but oh well . The real oddities though, are the strict nerfs to tactics/positions that were already weak, similar to this Najd change.

The issue there isn't "PI hates ROTW", but rather "what was the thought process that led to someone bothering to use any non-zero amount of time to nerf nations that were irrelevant unless in player hands and non-viable in competitive MP since any number of players could destroy it on a whim before and after". Those are the real head scratchers, outstanding/notable because unlike most of the other changes, there really isn't any clear reason for them that doesn't violate the premise of numerous other changes.

 

[Wizzington]

Sultanate? Najd isn't an Iqta anymore lol. All hail the sheikdom or some such :/.

Didn't you originally give the colonies that bonus so they could handle the likely heathen conquests without too much hassle? You could just say that it represents the ease conversion from the disease transition in this time period or that it's a nice boost for nations that start behind or some such. For the odd player CN in a junk faith for subjects like Sikh or pagan (the AI usually doesn't take the decision for those and thus gets nothing from decisions to conversion power) it's nice that CNs get 3%.

Yeah but overall missionary strength has increased since. I think +2% would be sufficient, but obviously we'd test any change to make sure they're not having trouble converting the Aztecs and such.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah but overall missionary strength has increased since. I think +2% would be sufficient, but obviously we'd test any change to make sure they're not having trouble converting the Aztecs and such.

You're probably right TBH, considering the impact development has had on conversions. Maybe an animist CN might struggle in wrong-culture, but even then it would be something like 20+ development needed to stall it out with a 2% NI.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Yeah but overall missionary strength has increased since. I think +2% would be sufficient, but obviously we'd test any change to make sure they're not having trouble converting the Aztecs and such.

I see that you are on the Serbian side of the argument...

 

[Wizzington]

I see that you are on the Serbian side of the argument...

I am always on the side of the 4th Rome.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

I am always on the side of the 4th Rome.

I get what you are saying...

 

[hwoosh]

Individual changes done for individual reasons. What you are doing is drawing a conclusion ('Paradox hates ROTW')

That's putting words in my mouth. To the outside eye, what it really looks like is a side effect of pushing out DLCs/patches one after another without enough dev and tester time to thoroughly evaluate the effects of the many balance and mechanics changes on every region. Then certain tech groups and regions end up getting shafted more often than others. That's not a conspiracy, but surely it's ameliorable.

You have obviously made a policy of giving RotW better gameplay and flavor over time, in a modular fashion, and have made great strides since August 2013... But that makes it all the more disheartening when certain issues stick out like a sore thumb, unchanged, unacknowledged, or even made worse. Mesoamerica is fun in 1.11, but an utter drag now that you've removed the colony seize tactic.

 

[Sjakie]

Answering "Have you stopped beating your wife"-style questions is not at the top of my agenda, no.

As for why Najd was nerfed, the +5% missionary strength was really only there to make the Jihad achievement possible. With various changes to increase the potential missionary strength, it became not only unnecessary but frankly trivializing in that you didn't need any kind of religious ideas or even piety to convert provinces, so it was reduced to a more reasonable but still quite powerful +2%.

This thread is very silly in tone so acting outraged that I'm not treating it with the utmost dignity is just dumb, sorry.

Have you considered the fact that this change is just plain boring? Literally nobody gains anything by this change. All you did is lower the replayability of your game by removing one unique country.

 

[Wizzington]

That's putting words in my mouth. To the outside eye, what it really looks like is a side effect of pushing out DLCs/patches one after another without enough dev and tester time to thoroughly evaluate the effects of the many balance and mechanics changes on every region. Then certain tech groups and regions end up getting shafted more often than others. That's not a conspiracy, but surely it's ameliorable.

You have obviously made a policy of giving RotW better gameplay and flavor over time, in a modular fashion, and have made great strides since August 2013... But that makes it all the more disheartening when certain issues stick out like a sore thumb, unchanged, unacknowledged, or even made worse. Mesoamerica is fun in 1.11, but an utter drag now that you've removed the colony seize tactic.

I quote: "why do you keep hitting RotW countries with unnecessary nerf after unnecessary nerf?"

I'm glad you realize that your original criticism was false but you should own that instead of pretending you were making another argument all along.

As for Mesoamerica being a drag, I recently finished a Sunset Invasion game and had a blast. I fail to see why Mesoamerican countries require seizing colonies outside coring range to be fun.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

As for why Najd was nerfed, the +5% missionary strength was really only there to make the Jihad achievement possible. With various changes to increase the potential missionary strength, it became not only unnecessary but frankly trivializing in that you didn't need any kind of religious ideas or even piety to convert provinces, so it was reduced to a more reasonable but still quite powerful +2%.

Still, that +5% missionary strength is not more OP than Elan, Millets, Goose step, Winged Hussars, etc.

 

[hwoosh]

I quote: "why do you keep hitting RotW countries with unnecessary nerf after unnecessary nerf?"

I'm glad you realize that your original criticism was false but you should own that instead of pretending you were making another argument all along.

I admit nothing of the kind. It's a three steps forwards, two steps backwards situation, and as I said, some places end up getting the shaft more than others. Your responses have helped clarify my thinking, but I stand by the original sentiment. I'll give credit where credit is due for making RotW better in some ways, but I won't ignore the fact that it's stagnated, been neglected, or actively made worse in others.

Going back to the major topic of this thread, I'll also agree with those who have noted that almost no RotW countries have truly unique and special NIs like Inter Caetera, France's Native Trading Principles, Russia's Siberian Frontier, etc. Adding more of those would be one of the nicest changes I can imagine, for sparking interest and delicious replayability.

ETA: Remember this old thread on the topic? But nothing ever came of it.

As for Mesoamerica being a drag, I recently finished a Sunset Invasion game and had a blast. I fail to see why Mesoamerican countries require seizing colonies outside coring range to be fun

So what did you do to fill the time between uniting the region by 1490 and a European plopping down a colony next to one of yours in 1550?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I quote: "why do you keep hitting RotW countries with unnecessary nerf after unnecessary nerf?"

I'm glad you realize that your original criticism was false but you should own that instead of pretending you were making another argument all along.

As for Mesoamerica being a drag, I recently finished a Sunset Invasion game and had a blast. I fail to see why Mesoamerican countries require seizing colonies outside coring range to be fun.

I play the region a lot. Here is the problem with 1.13 Mesoamerica:

If you unite the region and pass 5 reforms before 1520, which is pretty generous (you don't have to be an elite player to do that by any means), you rely one of two things:

1. Burn 1000's of ADM to reach exploration, just so you can sell a province to the AI, which of course has to "want it"
2. Hope the AI hits you with blind colonial conquest soon enough that you can actually defend still.

Once, in 1.13 I tried to skip teching to ADM 5 and just let the AI attack me. The result of that approach is that from 1521 to 1601, I could do nothing at all. No AI colonized in range of my sight, nobody declared. I don't have the DLC so I couldn't use development. Of course, ADM 5 is a big delay unto itself especially if your ruler luck isn't excellent, but being all but forced into a group if you don't want the alternative of "just sit there 80 years" isn't an ideal setup. No other location in the world is so constrained.

80 years is an outlier in this scenario, but waiting 40-60 (especially if you unite the region sooner) is not uncommon, and it's a step back from 1.9, let alone 1.11, in terms of "time spent waiting for either tech or AI". A while back I made a suggestion while you were on vacation, but for now the simplest thing to do that wouldn't be TOO much of a reach is to simply let Mesoamerica see the Caribbean. Without boats, you couldn't do anything there, but it allows diplomatic interaction with the Europeans pre blind-dow (contact which did happen historically) without a major overhaul, with some basis for it. Alternatively, the ability to do diplomacy with nations whose units you can see would be a helpful change as well.

The game is 377 years long, spending 40-80 is too large a chunk, and that chunk wasn't there from 1.7-1.9, or even 1.11 with colony seize.

Hoping that you happen to get lucky and have the AI colonize near you pre-1550 is not everyone's idea of fun.

 

[wingzero890]

Let's just remove all unique NIs and give everyone an equally balanced boring set of NIs. Flavorless Universalis 4!

 

[lecobra92]

That was a bug fixed early on in the beta patch though wasn't it? The ai exploring one I mean.

 

[LanMisa]

As for Mesoamerica being a drag, I recently finished a Sunset Invasion game and had a blast. I fail to see why Mesoamerican countries require seizing colonies outside coring range to be fun.

Well, I just finished Sun God myself (1.12. patch) and I have to admit, playing as Inca was a blast - from 1600 to 1700. And from 1444 to 1500. Between 1500 and 1600 the game was so boring that I thought about quitting several times.

The reasons were already given by TheMeInTeam, I think. EU4 is a game about interaction with other countries. After 1500 there was no longer any other country to interact with until I had finally amassed all those ADM points to get to tech 5. Until then there was nothing to do. Development only takes that much time as do events, the rest of the time was spent power-colonizing when applicable (which drags the time even more but is a bitter necessity to build up a powerbase before the Europeans come knocking) or just sitting around, waiting for the colony to finish so that I could build a new one. Then I had the explorer and the other colonist and finally I had some more things to do - until I had to westernize, which took me another 20 years with not much going on. South America was already empty sans the Europeans, the Mesoamericans were still too far away and the Europeans were obviously not someone to challenge yet. Only after westernizing, after seeing much of the map, after finally being able to interact with other nations again did the game become fun again. Really, really fun.

But when I think: "Shall I play the Aztecs next?" the only answer I come up with is a big NO. Because I cannot bear to sit around for hours doing nothing right away again. It will take me a few more hours of other, more interesting campaigns before I come back to America. Which is a shame. I also remember my Cherokee run a few patches earlier when I conquered both Americas and then some, where I had the same down-time problem for only about 30 years because of the Europeans landing earlier, the improved abilities to explore, the higher number of countries starting in North America. Which is quite a shame since the Inca, Maya and Aztecs get much more flavour than the Cherokee. And yet they feel inferiour to play with.

 

[Sjakie]

Aztecs have more to do than the Incas and the Europeans arrive earlier.

 

[zamieo]

Isn't it much easier to convert provinces since 1.12?

 

[yerm]

Wiz, let's take a step back from the nuts here. The whole Najd was nerfed or it needed the missionary strength doesn't have to matter. Let's go a little more simple, and hopefully a little more fair to you: What positive outcomes does this change have? What positives were lost? What negatives does it have? What negatives were lost? Do the positive benefits and removal of negatives outweigh the loss of positives and addition of potential negatives?

In the case of Najd, all I can see for positives is that it returns the achievement's challenge level to what it apparently was supposed to be. We lose its uniqueness, we add unnecessarily dull aspects, and as a result all I can surmise is that this MIGHT be good IF you are doing a Jihad run, but anywhere else Najd is no longer an interesting pick otherwise, it's cool-vassal-converter status is killed, and overall the nation is now just kind of meh.


Meanwhile, colonial nations WERE hugely successful at conversion. You can talk disease or force or whatever, but it's not wholly dissimilar from other nations that were "successful" at conversion. The new world was carpet-converted quite effectively, moral arguments aside, and to say that CNs shouldn't be at the top for conversion makes no sense to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

From a true challenge standpoint, the tribal thing hits much harder than the missionary strength. In practice, if you have 5 or 6 missionaries there's not a whole lot you can't convert with piety, but having 100's to 1000's of ducats ripped out of the empire via relative -LA difference is daunting indeed.

But indeed, questioning the positive and negative consequences of a change is a useful tool for evaluating whether it was worth making. It'd hard to see positives wrt the Najd change to missionary strength, while the tribal thing you could view as a straight difficulty tack-on which could be positive or negative depending on what you want.