Petition to make New World nations actually playable.

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Finnish Dragon

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Let´s say that a Spanish adventurer like Cortes tries to conquer the Aztec Empire with 1000 men. In a fierce battle, the natives defeat him and kill most of his forces. The natives also get steel swords, muskets, cannons and horses as spoils of war. However, a token force is able to escape.

Do they have knowledge and infrastructure to replicate the muskets and cannons? Do they know how to make gunpowder? Making high quality steel swords isn´t easy either. The real problem is the gap of technology from early bronze age that Aztecs had to the Age of Discoveries era technology which European nations had. The Aztecs simply wouldn´t have enough knowledge capital to reverse-engineer steel swords, muskets and cannons quickly. European nations had about than 2000 years of cultural evolution from the level of technology in metallurgy that Aztecs had to the level of technology Europe had in 1520.

Growing new horses would probably be the easiest thing to do. However, it would take years to breed the following generations and to have a significant number of cavalry. The main problem would probably be that the Aztecs didn´t have earlier experience using horses in the warfare. They don´t know how to train warhorses in practice.

Unfortunately for the Aztecs, the new diseases hit their country very badly. Killing about 20% or 30% of their total population and paralyzing their economy at the same time. Even if they want to reverse-engineer the Spanish weaponry and to start producing their own weapons this new calamity made it practically impossible.

In the end, the problem is that they might have some 10 or 20 years before Spain would try to conquer their country again. Some of the men were able to escape and they told to other Spaniards about rich cities and natives which are fierce but use primitive weaponry. Now, the Spanish decide to build much larger force and to try again. The Spanish doesn´t know that the diseases they brought worked as their allies and weakened the Aztec Empire before the second invasion.

Because of this, I do not see a reason to buff the American native nations in the vanilla EUIV.
 

TheDarkMaster

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A larger force? That would have been basically impossible at this time period. It would have been far more expensive then the Spanish Colonies could possible afford, and even if it did get back to the homeland, such an attack would have been a very, very, hard sell to the monarchs. Especially considering the amount of money that they would have already lost in the initial expedition, another is very unlikely to happen for another 30-50 years, at least.

Historically, these sorts of set backs do not inspire stronger pushes, they cause delays, and the value of an investment in them is severely questioned. Had Cortez's expedition failed, regardless of whether or not parts of his expedition escaped or not, the Spanish would have cut their losses and refused to fund further expeditions for some time, while consolidating the holdings they already had in Cuba and focusing on small scale, low cost colonization for many years to come.

Does this mean that the Aztecs would have been fine, and had plenty of time to reverse engineer the Spanish technology? Probably not. The empire would have likely faced a severe civil war as Tenochtitlan and her armies were weakened by the diseases spreading throughout the lands, making governing the other cities very difficult. Most likely, the whole place would have fragmented into many smaller states by the time that other Europeans arrived. That said, horses would likely be understood by the native populations by that point, and they would be floating a few new techs, in response to the outside interference.
 

Homero

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Cortez, as an explorer, deserves renown, but he was overrrated as a conquerer. In fact, a coalition of indigenous peoples overthrew the Aztecs. The alliance seems to have been contrived by his mistress, his interpreter, the only person in position to know what was going on.

Finnish Dragon
In the end, the problem is that they might have some 10 or 20 years before Spain would try to conquer their country again...I do not see a reason to buff the American native nations in the vanilla EUIV.
Good post, Finnish Dragon. Probably in less time. Cupidity is a strong motivation.
 
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Fawr

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A larger force? That would have been basically impossible at this time period. It would have been far more expensive then the Spanish Colonies could possible afford, and even if it did get back to the homeland, such an attack would have been a very, very, hard sell to the monarchs. Especially considering the amount of money that they would have already lost in the initial expedition, another is very unlikely to happen for another 30-50 years, at least.

Historically, these sorts of set backs do not inspire stronger pushes, they cause delays, and the value of an investment in them is severely questioned. Had Cortez's expedition failed, regardless of whether or not parts of his expedition escaped or not, the Spanish would have cut their losses and refused to fund further expeditions for some time, while consolidating the holdings they already had in Cuba and focusing on small scale, low cost colonization for many years to come.
I don't think the historical record backs this up. There were small Spanish forces getting defeated by the Maya not many years before Cortez landed.

I'm actually a bit surprised that they were that stable. It might have the benefit of making them smaller and more homogenous, which in turn increases research speed. Not that this invalidates your test. Based on what you found I did my own test game to 1524 (I started reading a book and missed 1520 :p). In my game the small trading nations overtook the Ottomans in 1448. In 1451 the majors caught up with the Ottomans. They then spent a while in rough parity. In 1469 both Austria and Aragon overtook the Ottomans in both land and naval. After then the Ottoman were slightly but continually behind. By 1524, most of the smaller trading nations along with Aragon and Austria were at around 17 land and 16 naval, while the rest were around 16 land and 16 naval. The Ottomans were at 15 land and 11 naval. In my game the Ottomans started out by annexing the Byzantines. They conquered a small bit of land from the Timurids and then conquered a handful of provinces from the Mamluks. Their expansion was actually fairly impressive. Then in rather the late 1400's or in the very early 1500's Castille, France, and Austria took turns really tearing them apart. They lost most of Greece, about half of Asia Minor, and all of the Levant.

Anyway, you can see from my test and somewhat less from yours what I'm talking about. The article, which is obviously just one take on the matter, puts the Ottoman's stagnation as something starting in the wake of the Siege of Wien. In EU3 that process starts in 1450's and 1460's. By the 1520's, perhaps the earliest the article might suggest Europeans were developing a distinct advantage, they are already distinctly and undeniably stronger.

I would say the West reaches parity with the Ottomans in 1520 and begins the process of overtaking them in the 1530's. And yes, by the end of 16th century the differences should be certainly be noticeable, glaring by the time we get well into the 17th century. As the tests show though, EU3 speeds things up by several decades, with a noticeable different having been developed by the end of the 15th century. If anything setting the slow limits to ~18 for the Ottomans might be one way to handle it.

Part of the Ottoman problem isn't their tech group, instead it is that if they are unlucky they can have half their country conquered for years at a time. That kills their income and consequently kills their tech. I've found that when their navy is destroyed then thats the beginning of the end, due to ships blocking the staits and separating their armies. I suspect thats the difference between the tech levels in your game and my game. Historically of course the Ottomans in the 1400s and 1500s didn't ever get to the point where their shipping couldn't leave their ports, and their armies couldn't travel from Asia to Europe. I'd like that bit fixed, but thats not really on topic (and using Monarch points rather than money may fix the tech side of things in EU4)...

I agree that if 1520 is the cut over point (for land tech) then things should be close for some decades on either side. But that comparision should take into account not just the tech levels, but also that the Muslim units are better in the early years (particually CAV). Naval tech is something I'd want to look at the history a bit more, as in EU3 its just a sad story for the Ottomans.
 
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Dafool

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I don't think the historical record backs this up. There were small Spanish forces getting defeated by the Maya not many years before Cortez landed.

Well, the handful of defeats suffered in the Yucatan were separated by a few years between each. Several years, perhaps a decade, is not unreasonable. Also, Cortez's venture into Mexico didn't have much to do with the Yucatan.

Part of the Ottoman problem isn't their tech group, instead it is that if they are unlucky they can have half their country conquered for years at a time. That kills their income and consequently kills their tech. I've found that when their navy is destroyed then thats the beginning of the end, due to ships blocking the staits and separating their armies. I suspect thats the difference between the tech levels in your game and my game. Historically of course the Ottomans in the 1400s and 1500s didn't ever get to the point where their shipping couldn't leave their ports, and their armies couldn't travel from Asia to Europe. I'd like that bit fixed, but thats not really on topic (and using Monarch points rather than money may fix the tech side of things in EU4)...

I agree that if 1520 is the cut over point (for land tech) then things should be close for some decades on either side. But that comparision should take into account not just the tech levels, but also that the Muslim units are better in the early years (particually CAV). Naval tech is something I'd want to look at the history a bit more, as in EU3 its just a sad story for the Ottomans.

I think we're in a good deal of agreement then, mainly that the Ottomans don't quite perform like they should. Their generally underwhelming technology is both a cause and effect of this failure.
 

TheDarkMaster

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I think the main reason that the Ottomans almost always fall behind is the neighbor bonus that the European nations enjoy that the Ottomans don't get. In Europe, you always have dozens of nations in your tech group that will push forward any stragglers quite easily. The Ottomans must carry their own tech in order to stay competitive, something that slow limits can't fix.
 

Fawr

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I think the main reason that the Ottomans almost always fall behind is the neighbor bonus that the European nations enjoy that the Ottomans don't get. In Europe, you always have dozens of nations in your tech group that will push forward any stragglers quite easily. The Ottomans must carry their own tech in order to stay competitive, something that slow limits can't fix.
The neighbour bonus is really only significant for small countries, if the Ottomans were anywhere near their historical size that is going to be a trivial bonus. For example in my test game the French (who have the same land tech as the Ottomans) have a bonus to land tech of 1.8 gold per month, and their total cost is ~6000. So the Ottomans aren't missing out on much...

I think we're in a good deal of agreement then, mainly that the Ottomans don't quite perform like they should. Their generally underwhelming technology is both a cause and effect of this failure.
In your test game it was both, but I often see the Ottomans become a failed state before they fall behind in tech (which is why I blame other factors).
 

TheDarkMaster

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In my games as a European nation, I usually found myself with a bonus of 20 or so once a good chunk of Europe had the next tech level in an area. If I'm falling a fair bit behind, the neighbor tech bonus can easily get up to 60+ ducats a month. A recently Westernized nation will often push 200+ per month.
 

Fawr

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In my games as a European nation, I usually found myself with a bonus of 20 or so once a good chunk of Europe had the next tech level in an area. If I'm falling a fair bit behind, the neighbor tech bonus can easily get up to 60+ ducats a month. A recently Westernized nation will often push 200+ per month.
I agree that the current westernisation process is a joke and makes it far to easy to catch up.

I'll take a look at a bunch of other countries in my test game.
 

panionios

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In your test game it was both, but I often see the Ottomans become a failed state before they fall behind in tech (which is why I blame other factors).

I think it has more to do with the fact that they are constantly fighting the spaniards and the brits. When neither should have any business there. The Holy War CB needs to be fixed.
 

Dafool

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I think it has more to do with the fact that they are constantly fighting the spaniards and the brits. When neither should have any business there. The Holy War CB needs to be fixed.

This is one of many causes. Namely, their tech group isn't quite good enough to match their historical standard. Additionally, the Ottomans, as you've pointed out, are often the target of costly and destabilizing conflicts. And further more, most of the areas that the Ottomans can expand into are quite poor, which further limits their prosperity. Simply put, the Ottomans have an uphill battle if they want to succeed.
 

brifbates

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This is one of many causes. Namely, their tech group isn't quite good enough to match their historical standard. Additionally, the Ottomans, as you've pointed out, are often the target of costly and destabilizing conflicts. And further more, most of the areas that the Ottomans can expand into are quite poor, which further limits their prosperity. Simply put, the Ottomans have an uphill battle if they want to succeed.

To continue the way off topic discussion...

The biggest problem facing the ai Ottomans is the derpy ai. Any intelligent person knows that you don't overcommit your forces and risk getting cut off yet that is exactly what happens to the ai OE over and over and over again. As long as the fighting style is every unit charge to the closest land front and the straits can be cut the situation will remain. You see the same thing happen in Denmark pretty often as well.

Really, the mechanics for blocking strait crossings need to be looked at. The current model is low risk/high reward and whoever has the most ships wins and blocks all straits indefinitely. So what if the local land power has 40 batteries of artillery lined up along the strait, they can't touch you so your 1 cog can completely shut them down...
 

Fawr

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Really, the mechanics for blocking strait crossings need to be looked at. The current model is low risk/high reward and whoever has the most ships wins and blocks all straits indefinitely. So what if the local land power has 40 batteries of artillery lined up along the strait, they can't touch you so your 1 cog can completely shut them down...
I think the strait mechanics are the killer, and it should be the first thing to look at. The Ottomans never have total superiority over the Venitians/Genoese/British/Aragonese/Castilian fleets, and I don't think they should be expected too. However if they end up with 2 or 3 of those enemies attacking them at once then their fleet ends up in port and their armies can't get from Europe to Asia Minor. The naval powers drop off troops in whatever side didn't have an army, and then half the Ottoman empire is gone.

My fix would be that if one power owns & controls all 4 of the strait areas around the Bosphorus then they should be able to block naval ships from the straits. That already happens for trade ships, why not include it for naval ships too? I'd also make it easier (faster and cheaper) for a large power with many ports to rebuild its navy. Why should building ships stop you from building land units? Why can you only build one ship at a time in a province? Why are ships so expensive to make and so cheap to maintain?
 

Wowwars

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Rome was at Phoenocian-like standards & they soon out did the Carthaginians in Technology. which Carthage being a Power & Advanced it was all based on Manpower for the Romans & Luck that hannibal didn't slaughter the Capital.