Petition to make New World nations actually playable.

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Seli

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Not as much as you think. My main gripe with the technological system's effect on the New World is that it deprives them of numerous mechanics they should have access to. Markets, barracks, and other buildings should all be constructable. I understand the same could be said of Europe, but at least they unlock them quickly. The New World doesn't get them at all. Or trading. The Natives can't even trade in their own CoT's, which is not only contrary to history, but also just plain weird. Or combat. Natives got seriously screwed by the changes to combat that came throughout EU3's development. Changes to morale and the inclusion of tactics nerfed their armies more than they already were, making them utterly incapable of winning battles, even against their own rebels. As I've been saying throughout this thread, the main point that many of us have made is that the New World doesn't necessarily need to be more powerful, but it does deserve a handful of fixes so that it functions reasonably within the mechanics of the game.

Exactly my point, and of course a source of many pages of arguments in this thread. Given what the EU3 system means (seems to represent) with these constructions the New World nations should not be able to build them, even if they have structures with similar names. They just were not at a the level and effects represented by these buildings.
 

Dafool

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Exactly my point, and of course a source of many pages of arguments in this thread. Given what the EU3 system means (seems to represent) with these constructions the New World nations should not be able to build them, even if they have structures with similar names. They just were not at a the level and effects represented by these buildings.

They had massive temples and marketplaces larger than most in Europe. The Inca built storehouses and had a very well organized and sufficient series of supply lines connected by impressive roads. The Aztecs and Inca had universities and schools. The Andes were heavily fortified as was much of Mesoamerica. There is no doubt that many of the basic buildings are justifiable for New World nations, either on their existence or their comparison with similar European constructions. Much like the Europeans, they should probably need to build these, but they certainly should be able to build them.
 

StephenT

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My main gripe with the technological system's effect on the New World is that it deprives them of numerous mechanics they should have access to. Markets, barracks, and other buildings should all be constructable. I understand the same could be said of Europe, but at least they unlock them quickly. The New World doesn't get them at all.
But they do:

EU3_121.jpg


They don't get them as fast as Europe does, but they certainly can get them.



Or trading. The Natives can't even trade in their own CoT's, which is not only contrary to history, but also just plain weird.
But they can:

EU3_114.jpg


(Admittedly it's through a special mechanic, not by the standard merchant-sending mechanism; but they do trade in their own CoTs.)


Or combat. Natives got seriously screwed by the changes to combat that came throughout EU3's development. Changes to morale and the inclusion of tactics nerfed their armies more than they already were, making them utterly incapable of winning battles, even against their own rebels.
Not only can they defeat rebels, they can defeat the French:

EU3_145.jpg


And for the record, that French army started out as 22,000 strong when it first landed. Attrition is nasty in the mountains, especially when your Inca opponent keeps scorching the earth ahead of you and recapturing every province you just occupied behind you. Also note that the Inca are still using Native American Spearmen here; they haven't Westernised yet.



In short, my main problem with your arguments - apart from the occasional attempts to inflate Native American technological achievements far past historical reality - is that you're campaigning to fix a problem that is much less serious than you make it out to be.

Is playing a Native American nation tough? Hell yes. I'd say the Aztecs and Mayas are pretty much doomed, because they're right in the path of the earliest European explorers. But the Incas and the North American tribes have enough time to research forts and move their sliders to centralised/innovative before the Europeans come calling - which means they have a measurable chance to survive. Probably a much better chance than illapa's 10%, if played by a human against the AI.

Would more game content for them be fun? Again, yes. But only if it's historical, not exaggerated for the sake of "balance" (or worse, political correctness).
 

Dafool

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They don't get them as fast as Europe does, but they certainly can get them.

Most buildings can only be unlocked if you focus very heavily on one or two techs. This requires very unusual specialization to pull off. They also take about a century to research at such a rate, meaning that if you don't follow that very particular strategy you won't get access to them. And that's ignoring that most of these structures were historically just as well know to the Natives as Europeans.

But they can:

(Admittedly it's through a special mechanic, not by the standard merchant-sending mechanism; but they do trade in their own CoTs.)

This is because any state with a CoT will start with a merchant or two in that CoT. As you just said, they have no actual access to the trading system.

Not only can they defeat rebels, they can defeat the French:

And for the record, that French army started out as 22,000 strong when it first landed. Attrition is nasty in the mountains, especially when your Inca opponent keeps scorching the earth ahead of you and recapturing every province you just occupied behind you. Also note that the Inca are still using Native American Spearmen here; they haven't Westernised yet.

Regarding rebels, I can easily say you're ignoring the problem. By loading up an Inca save, I tested my luck against rebels. Using normal battle mechanics it took me 32 battles to destroy a 2 regiment pretender stack. In those battles I lost ~15K men in battle and in 17 of those battles I inflicted no casualties on the rebels. That is not normal.

As for your image of the French, it's clear you used the 10x autowin rule. This is the only mechanic that would allow you to win that battle. If the French had landed 5K soldiers, something entirely within the realm of possibility in EU3, you would have no chance of winning a battle. Using scorched earth mechanics and instantly retaking fortresses is not the same thing as functional combat.

In short, my main problem with your arguments - apart from the occasional attempts to inflate Native American technological achievements far past historical reality - is that you're campaigning to fix a problem that is much less serious than you make it out to be.

In my view you're downplaying legitimate issues because you believe that Natives should be inherently nerfed in numerous ways. I've been arguing that the issues that exist need to be fixed and realistic mechanics put in place to simulate their downfall.


Is playing a Native American nation tough? Hell yes. I'd say the Aztecs and Mayas are pretty much doomed, because they're right in the path of the earliest European explorers. But the Incas and the North American tribes have enough time to research forts and move their sliders to centralised/innovative before the Europeans come calling - which means they have a measurable chance to survive. Probably a much better chance than illapa's 10%, if played by a human against the AI.

It should be tough, but not because you're beaten into the ground by penalties. As I've repeated constantly, being playable and good gameplay are not the same thing. The ability of the player to use gamey mechanics for survival is not an indicator that something is working just fine.

Would more game content for them be fun? Again, yes. But only if it's historical, not exaggerated for the sake of "balance" (or worse, political correctness).

Honestly I find this insulting. You and several others have continually insinuated that anyone who supports the view opposite of yours is a revisionist, an apologist, or is being politically correct. I've not called you Eurocentric or a white supremacist simply because a handful of your points might coincide with those views. Being civil is important. You've provided very little argument that has convinced me and I'm sure you feel somewhat the same. That doesn't mean either of us are arguing for extreme ideas that can be dismissed with a few derogatory labels.
 

Sun_Wu

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I didn't want to seem rude but I don't want to get into a completely separate discussion about the Qing Conquest Theory. This thread has been far too off topic as it is.
You insinuated I'm like a Nazi, apologise or have an actual discussion.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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Hmm... seems like someone's arguing that Europe's only more advanced than the rest of the world after 1800. *sigh*

I am all for demolishing the tech groups and having the tech progression less deterministic, but going into the extremes and overplaying the progress of backward nations of the era is a bit overboard.
 

Sun_Wu

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Apologies over the internet is cheap. I wouldn't even consider it worthwhile as something to demand. (And to clarify, I am not taking sides in this little exchange).
Surely you can understand an Asian getting offend because of someone slinging mud at his honour
Hmm... seems like someone's arguing that Europe's only more advanced than the rest of the world after 1800. *sigh*

I am all for demolishing the tech groups and having the tech progression less deterministic, but going into the extremes and overplaying the progress of backward nations of the era is a bit overboard.
Well in reality it was ~1700, but I think Dafool was simply meaning it was progress.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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Surely you can understand an Asian getting offend because of someone slinging mud at his honour
I'd rather not demand apology still. A lot of netizens tend to be quite unrelenting about admitting mistakes online and I usually would settle with driving the spade as deep as possible without breaking the rules.

Well in reality it was ~1700, but I think Dafool was simply meaning it was progress.
The Americaball did comment that some other person has come to his senses when that person sarcastically commented that Europeans are no more advanced than the rest of the world in 1800's.

Anyway, the reason I tend to avoid the EUIV forum is that it's usually a huge load of repeated arguments that lead to nowhere. But speaking of improvements, I am looking forward to the new African provinces (+ Scramble For Africa event chain) that are going to be added to D&T. It's a good thing D&T is getting new contributors that are negative in the innovative/narrowminded slider. I think after the new Africa is introduced, we can have another discussion about giving BYZ better tech rates.
 

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I think that the only thing that needs to be done to make native Americans interesting to play is the addition of far more native american groups than there are presently. I suspect however that the current amount besides coming from interests of programming resources and their relative weakness derives mainly from the desire that america be colonized rather than conquered. If north and south america were covered or even dotted with native entities then a European power under the EU3 system would only have to quickly gobble them up to "colonize" all of America in a few years. So to really do the western hemisphere justice, without making ahistorically powerful native american nations that would not have existed as such, there needs to be a way under the EU4 system for a large and well unified political group to exist that cannot be annexed merely pacified. It would be difficult to do without feeling gamey like the whole nomadic tribes colonization mechanic, but without something to allow many many more historical native tribes to exist albeit as weak entities, America will continue to be an extremely stilted and boring aspect of the game no matter which side you come from.
 

Dafool

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The Americaball did comment that some other person has come to his senses when that person sarcastically commented that Europeans are no more advanced than the rest of the world in 1800's.

Sun_Wu explained it properly. If you didn't catch on to the extreme sarcasm of that entire post, then you might want to reread it.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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Sun_Wu explained it properly. If you didn't catch on to the extreme sarcasm of that entire post, then you might want to reread it.
Oh, I can read alright.

An except of that little exchange of your's:

Joe: How can I prove that the rest of the world stagnated compared to Europe? Do you seriously want me to find evidence to show that Europe was more advanced than the rest of the world by 1800? This thread is absurd.

Americaball: So you're basically saying that you can't prove your assertion? If you can only provide proof for 1800, then you've missed somewhere between 98-100% of the game's time frame.

Joe: I'm saying that I'm not going to write you a thesis on the growth of European power over 6 centuries.

Americaball: Then write a few paragraphs. Otherwise don't make a claim you can't back up with some actual evidence.

Joe: Okay, you win. Europe was no more technologically advanced than the rest of world from until 1800, when everything fell into place.

Americaball: I'm glad you're learning some sense.

Usually... there's a point hidden behind a sarcastic remark. While it's obvious to us what Joe's meaning is, that other sarcastic remark made in response to his does not seem to be very meaningful. It sounds like filler material. But anyhow, I don't mean to intrude. I just consider the direction of the discussion a bit funny.
 

Dafool

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Oh, I can read alright.

An except of that little exchange of your's:

You forgot the point of that sarcastic little exchange which started here:

Joe: That assumes that technical innovation is possible outside of westernisation. As has been said, it was not historically, and to this date there is no advanced country that has not developed without westernising.

Me: So, what you're saying is that no state outside of Europe had any technological progress throughout this era without adopting that technology from Europe? I don't think you could back such a claim up in the least.

Joe: How can I prove that the rest of the world stagnated compared to Europe? Do you seriously want me to find evidence to show that Europe was more advanced than the rest of the world by 1800?


Taking things out of context can indeed make them look "funny".
 

Sun_Wu

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I'd rather not demand apology still. A lot of netizens tend to be quite unrelenting about admitting mistakes online and I usually would settle with driving the spade as deep as possible without breaking the rules.

The Americaball did comment that some other person has come to his senses when that person sarcastically commented that Europeans are no more advanced than the rest of the world in 1800's.

Anyway, the reason I tend to avoid the EUIV forum is that it's usually a huge load of repeated arguments that lead to nowhere. But speaking of improvements, I am looking forward to the new African provinces (+ Scramble For Africa event chain) that are going to be added to D&T. It's a good thing D&T is getting new contributors that are negative in the innovative/narrowminded slider. I think after the new Africa is introduced, we can have another discussion about giving BYZ better tech rates.
I'm a big pansy so that sounds too mean for me to do.
220px-Pansy_Viola_x_wittrockiana_Red_Cultivar_Flower_2000px.jpg


he was speaking in jest

How do you feel about D&T becoming more crowdsourced?
BYZ can reform with the tech reforms I'm putting in or perhaps form Roman Empire would reform them as part of the bonus.
Oh, I can read alright.

An except of that little exchange of your's:

Joe: How can I prove that the rest of the world stagnated compared to Europe? Do you seriously want me to find evidence to show that Europe was more advanced than the rest of the world by 1800? This thread is absurd.

Americaball: So you're basically saying that you can't prove your assertion? If you can only provide proof for 1800, then you've missed somewhere between 98-100% of the game's time frame.

Joe: I'm saying that I'm not going to write you a thesis on the growth of European power over 6 centuries.

Americaball: Then write a few paragraphs. Otherwise don't make a claim you can't back up with some actual evidence.

Joe: Okay, you win. Europe was no more technologically advanced than the rest of world from until 1800, when everything fell into place.

Americaball: I'm glad you're learning some sense.

Usually... there's a point hidden behind a sarcastic remark. While it's obvious to us what Joe's meaning is, that other sarcastic remark made in response to his does not seem to be very meaningful. It sounds like filler material. But anyhow, I don't mean to intrude. I just consider the direction of the discussion a bit funny.
I cut him extra slack because he is a D&T modder emeritus plus I learned how he thinks by reading his code.
 

PureBeef

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People who want a clearer picture of what the Americas were like before Columbus should read 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C Mann. It is a great book, not a long read, and paints a great picture of what life was like in the Americas before Columbus.

I'm paraphrasing here, but there was a scientist Mann interviews, and that person says something like "imagine if the Mongols arrived in Europe during the height of the plague, that is essentially what happened in the Americas." The people of the Americas, and history that the Europeans recorded was nothing like what it actually was.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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You forgot the point of that sarcastic little exchange which started here:

Joe: That assumes that technical innovation is possible outside of westernisation. As has been said, it was not historically, and to this date there is no advanced country that has not developed without westernising.

Me: So, what you're saying is that no state outside of Europe had any technological progress throughout this era without adopting that technology from Europe? I don't think you could back such a claim up in the least.

Joe: How can I prove that the rest of the world stagnated compared to Europe? Do you seriously want me to find evidence to show that Europe was more advanced than the rest of the world by 1800?

Taking things out of context can indeed make them look "funny".
I think what he said made sense. Technological progress is difficult to scientifically compare. While it can be plain to us that England is more advanced than say China in 1800, proving this fact can be rather difficult. First of all, we'd have to define the parameters and then we'd have to define the metrics to measure these parameters. If I were to seriously fulfill your request to offer proof, it wouldn't be mere paragraphs of text, but probably something the size of a thesis as Joe suggested. Do you know how many pages a thesis has on average?

Anyway, I don't think any of what you quoted changes anything or that it reduces the absurdity of the exchange (without targeting any part in particular).
 

Dafool

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I think what he said made sense. Technological progress is difficult to scientifically compare. While it can be plain to us that England is more advanced than say China in 1800, proving this fact can be rather difficult. First of all, we'd have to define the parameters and then we'd have to define the metrics to measure these parameters. If I were to seriously fulfill your request to offer proof, it wouldn't be mere paragraphs of text, but probably something the size of a thesis as Joe suggested. Do you know how many pages a thesis has on average?

Anyway, I don't think any of what you quoted changes anything or that it reduces the absurdity of the exchange (without targeting any part in particular).

The claim that technological progress in the EU3 era was solely European in nature is a very tenuous assertion. If someone, in this case Joe, wants to make that claim, then they need to back it up with something. I never challenged him to show me anything about European technology in 1800. That was merely his way of avoiding the question. When someone makes a claim like that and then says it doesn't need explanation or can't be expressed without a lengthy thesis, that strikes me as an excuse and nothing more.
 

Fawr

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And why can't westernisation not just mean learning to use horses and guns to fight?

Depends.

My theory is that learning to use horses and guns to fight didn't really give you much advantage at all. Lots of countries did it, but they all still went backwards compared to Western Europe.

So if you think westernise = +6 land tech investment every month then I'd agree with you. But if you think buying guns and breeding horses lets you catch up to the Europeans then that isn't what happened historically.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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The claim that technological progress in the EU3 era was solely European in nature is a very tenuous assertion. If someone, in this case Joe, wants to make that claim, then they need to back it up with something. I never challenged him to show me anything about European technology in 1800. That was merely his way of avoiding the question. When someone makes a claim like that and then says it doesn't need explanation or can't be expressed without a lengthy thesis, that strikes me as an excuse and nothing more.
I believe he largely dismissed your request because it sounded so... absurd. I've also encountered similar situations in the past where I have to choose between wasting my time finding proof for some random netizen and the option of just dismissing that person. But obviously, I don't speak for him. He could potentially be wetting his pants and trying desperately to dodge your very incriminating question, but I don't find that very likely.

As for your point, my counter question to you is: Are there any non-European countries that had any significant technological development not due to embracing European ideas? China obviously stagnated since the Mongol era. Japan Westernized. India was... well... under British control. So what he said is quite reasonable in that technological innovation was largely driven by Europeans. Obviously, I don't feel like spending time to offer "paragraphs of proof to you" (I can, but I also have better things to do), but if you feel like you are in solid logical high ground, you should perhaps offer some of those proofs of your own instead of requesting other people to devote their time and resources at your whim.
 

ywhtptgtfo

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How do you feel about D&T becoming more crowdsourced?
It was rather insane in the past that egos would get in the way of innovation and improvement. So I think it is a good direction to go, especially with all these talented people who are here to help. For this bunch, I think they are fairly open-minded and I don't think we'd get too much "END OF DISCUSSION" type of response popping up.

I would've loved to find ways to contribute, but my spare time is tied up with modding another game.

BYZ can reform with the tech reforms I'm putting in or perhaps form Roman Empire would reform them as part of the bonus.
I think the popular sentiment is that it should get back into Latin tech when the Themes System is restored. But I am glad that this is getting through at last. While I don't play BYZ, it's still a good decorative thing to have.

I cut him extra slack because he is a D&T modder emeritus plus I learned how he thinks by reading his code.
Scripting in the EU3 engine (what is it called? Clauswitz?) is just simple logic. The challenge is on being detail-oriented. Props have to be given to PI for not making the modding system as convoluted as that of NWN/Oblivion/Skyrim.