Petition to make New World nations actually playable.

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panionios

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Has anyone here seen Mel Gibson's film "Apocalypto"? Remember the ending scene when they encounter the spaniards for the first time? The look in their faces? It was amazement. It was shock and awe. And probably that's what happened. And that's how the game developers should deal with it.
 

Colombo

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Has anyone here seen Mel Gibson's film "Apocalypto"? Remember the ending scene when they encounter the spaniards for the first time? The look in their faces? It was amazement. It was shock and awe. And probably that's what happened. And that's how the game developers should deal with it.
Have you seen the film Avatar? Or older version: Pocahontas?
 

Homero

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Any comparison between the Spanish and the Portuguese empires in America is biased by their radically different contexts.The type of political control was different, the administrative structure was different, the structure of the Spanish empire was more influenced by the military nature of the conquest,etc
 
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Eh up me duck

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Has anyone here seen Mel Gibson's film "Apocalypto"? Remember the ending scene when they encounter the spaniards for the first time? The look in their faces? It was amazement. It was shock and awe. And probably that's what happened. And that's how the game developers should deal with it.
Loved that film. I may get it actually. The end scene is brilliant, even though it hinted at a sequel that never came.
 

illapa

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Let me try to analyze it more historically for you Fawr here is basically why I say that historically the way the conquest happened was very unlikely.

All the following happened but most historians on the period would agree that Cortez was one of the luckiest people alive.

1) Spanish happened to look like and arrive at the exact date of the arrival of the god Quetzalcoatl. While the nobility might not have believed that he was a God many peasants would have and thus this would have lowered moral amongst their men.

2) Had Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin NOT been a warmongering powerful emperor and instead been a leader who solidified power he would not have had such an unstable realm. He had just conquered the Maya city states of Xicallanco and all the city states around Tapachula (near border of Mexico and Guatemala). The conquests of all this land in the south and all the Maya lands outside of the Yucatan Peninsula led to a lot of rebellious provinces under his control. He also went to war against the Tlaxcala, Huexotzinco and the Tarascans which were the Aztec's major enemies of the time.

3) This warmongering and vast amounts of sacrifice that he demanded to celebrate his victories which culminated in the 1487 sacrifice where somewhere between 10,000 and 80,000 people were taken from tributary vassals and sacrificed. This led to the Aztec's vassals and tributaries resentful to the Aztecs so when the Spanish arrived all the east coast vassals defect and join the Tlaxcala-Spanish Alliance and overthrow their Aztec's overlords. They decided at least the Spanish overlords would not be as bad as the Aztec overlords. Had this not happened Cortez would have gotten few allies and not stood a chance vs the hundreds of thousands of Aztec warriors with only a thousand men. In addition had Montezuma taken the Spanish as a serious threat from the beginning he would have just ordered his army to go to the coast and crush him before he even got inland and thus he would not have been able to get native allies. Montezuma had Cortez monitored but never interfered with, had he just immediately ordered their death (which many generals wanted to do) he would have surely defeated the Spanish with overwhelming force or at least scared them off.

This is why I am saying that without many events coinciding the Spanish would not have been lucky enough to have the Aztecs in an unstable scenario when they beat them. Disease would come only after the Spanish had already gathered an army and started open warfare with the Aztec. Had the Aztecs not created a perfect storm of procrastination to deal with the newcomers, disbelief in the Spanish being an actual threat (After all who would have believed that a thousand men could defeat an empire of millions), pissed off all their non heartland vassals, and been at war with their neighbors the Spanish would have had a much harder time using divide and conquer to defeat the Aztecs.

With all the above taken into account I STILL want Iberia to have large colonial empires in EU3. What happened historically should be likely in the game BUT I want to stress how unlikely all these things were in real life. Because they were unlikely in real life I want to make it so that Natives survive say a 1 in 10 times. I am NOT SAYING that natives should survive intact as native cultures non westernized, pagan, etc. I am thinking a Japan scenario where the nation quickly recognizes Europeans as a threat and as superior and they quickly westernize and survive as a Hybrid native/western nation.

The Inca account is even more ridiculous. The Inca Emperor, heir, and next heir all died from disease simultaneously thus leading to the next two sons going to war with each other in a North vs South war, and then the son with LESS backing won thus leading to a government of low legitimacy, instability, and a severely weakened army with little loyalty to the central state. The North side won but then the Spanish invade from the north thus defeating the Emperor's loyal people first and then the central areas of the nation side with the Spanish to get back at the North which had just conquered them. It would be as if in the American Civil war ends, then Great Britain invades New York and the South immediately again declared war and joined the British against the Union. If a human was controlling the Inca perhaps he could win the civil war faster or at least have it so the larger portion of the empire wins the civil war, or maybe he could just have some luck and not have all 3 parts of the national succession did not simultaneously die.

There is that enough historical analysis for you? If you want a good book on the Inca conquest I suggest http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Days-Incas-MacQuarrie/dp/0743260503 it is easy and enjoyable to read and gives the tale of the conquest from a non partisan point of view. Showing both sides and how the Inca came very close to pushing the Spanish out in Manco's rebellion but failed in the end. Manco sent soldiers to Lima under general Quizo Yupanqui who defeated the Spanish three times in the Andes but was defeated by a combined Spanish and traitor army at Lima. Manco himself was defeated and failed his siege of Cuzco, though he retreated to Ollantaytambo and won a battle there he had lost the war.

Joe as far as revisionists go...do you actually believe the primary documents that the Spaniards sent back to the King? The Spanish accounts blatantly lie in half the accounts multiplying native armies by about 10x and by pretending that they had NO native auxiliaries. According to the Spanish they went alone with no allies and crushed millions with practically their bare hands. They also have no one to verify their stories they are trying to glorify themselves so that the King will reward them more (which he did) so we have to see both sides of the story to get a true portrayal. I hate people who are revisionists just to be revisionists but in this case I believe that you just cannot believe the primary documents completely. I want to agree with you Joe I am Spanish by descent but I simply do not see the evidence to support Spanish claims to everything they did. I want Europeans to conquer the natives most playthroughs 9/10 times if not more BUT I want it to be so that natives get a chance to actually fight and be much more fun to play than they currently are.
 
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illapa

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Apologies for the double post this is just irrelevant to the above so I did not want to mix them. Since the consensus is leaning more towards yes there needs to be some reform of these nations but it needs to be balanced and result in European victory at least 9/10 of the times. Can we try to focus the discussion more on gameplay theoretical fixes since the devs have been saying many many times in this forum that gameplay is equal if not more important than history. PLEASE do not start an argument on gameplay vs history it is my opinion that the gameplay should be 1st while keeping it as historically accurate as possible. My "fix" for the conquest would be to add some events/decisions and bring up the natives to their historical strength to be able to fight the unrealistic numbers of European soldiers that are brought in the game. In addition an event chain that shows chaos and instability followed by resurgance (if you live) should be implemented for native nations so that they are more fun to play. Top of my list is for native nations to be able to expand to their historical size (biggest issue being the Inca with only 60% of their empire).

I believe a fight between a destabilized powerful nation would much better represent the conquest compared to curb stomping a weak state. I just think that adding events/decisions, and increasing native power is the easiest and shortest fix to the issue. Certainly it is a faster fix than adding an auxiliary system for soldiers, re working attrition, re working reinforfce rates if they are further from capitals, and breaking up the regions into many smaller states. I'm trying to make a compromise by proposing an easier fix but anyone else got suggestions? Particularly people who are against anything being proposed I'd like to hear their alternatives.
 

geodejade87

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Illapa, while I agree with much of what you say in spirit, you're getting a lot of details wrong. Please don't take this the wrong way, but given how asinine I've been on the details of others' posts, I think it'd be dishonest not to point these out.

1) Spanish happened to look like and arrive at the exact date of the arrival of the god Quetzalcoatl. While the nobility might not have believed that he was a God many peasants would have and thus this would have lowered moral amongst their men.

This is highly disputed, and is probably based on a translation error. Several scholars (Mike Smith and Mathew Restall, for example) think this might have been a myth that originated post-conquest. More likely, the Aztecs didn't attack Cortés right away because he identified himself as an ambassador of a foreign monarch as soon as he got off the boat. By the rules of Mesoamerican warfare, this gave him a kind of diplomatic immunity.

2) Had Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin NOT been a warmongering powerful emperor and instead been a leader who solidified power he would not have had such an unstable realm. He had just conquered the Maya city states of Xicallanco and all the city states around Tapachula (near border of Mexico and Guatemala). The conquests of all this land in the south and all the Maya lands outside of the Yucatan Peninsula led to a lot of rebellious provinces under his control. He also went to war against the Tlaxcala, Huexotzinco and the Tarascans which were the Aztec's major enemies of the time.
That's certainly one interpretation, but there's an alternative point of view (posed by Ross Hassig) that argues one of the reasons Motecuzoma II was so unpopular was precisely because he was trying to consolidate power in a more centralized fashion. He enacted a bunch of laws that stripped power from lower nobility and placed even more constraints on commoners. This is a tough thing to argue either way, as we're trying to get at motivation in historical accounts.

The Spanish accounts blatantly lie in half the accounts multiplying native armies by about 10x and by pretending that they had NO native auxiliaries. According to the Spanish they went alone with no allies and crushed millions with practically their bare hands. They also have no one to verify their stories they are trying to glorify themselves so that the King will reward them more (which he did) so we have to see both sides of the story to get a true portrayal. I hate people who are revisionists just to be revisionists but in this case I believe that you just cannot believe the primary documents completely. I want to agree with you Joe I am Spanish by descent but I simply do not see the evidence to support Spanish claims to everything they did. I want Europeans to conquer the natives most playthroughs 9/10 times if not more BUT I want it to be so that natives get a chance to actually fight and be much more fun to play than they currently are.

You're correct in that the conquistadors' accounts are written from a biased perspective in trying to gain favors from the King of Spain, and they do downplay the significance of native allies, but not in terms of their numbers. Cortés puts the number of auxiliaries in his army at 100,000 during the Siege of Tenochtitlan, which is probably a fairly reasonable estimate. Where they downplay native contribution is in the actual fighting. Diaz del Castillo describes them pulling native soldiers off of the causeways so they wouldn't impede troop movements of the Spanish. Which, if taken at face value, would indicate the 100,000 native soldiers were just standing around by the lake shore while the Spanish did all of the fighting. One look at the casualty figures tells you that's clearly not true. Plus, when Cuauhtemoc started sending raids to the native cities supporting Cortés, the auxiliaries packed up and left to protect their families. Cortés freaked out when that happened and they broke the siege momentarily to try and convince their auxiliaries to come back.

Again, sorry to nitpick, but we should try to keep our facts straight if possible.
 

Fawr

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Again, sorry to nitpick, but we should try to keep our facts straight if possible.
Thanks, I was going to ask for evidence on almost all of these.

Since the consensus is leaning more towards yes there needs to be some reform of these nations but it needs to be balanced and result in European victory at least 9/10 of the times.
I'd have said that maybe 9/10 on the first attempt, but 99/100 on the first 50 years was balanced. At least for coastal states, and ones where they had resources that the Europeans wanted. In North America many tribes survived on land which was otherwise unwanted until gold was found on their land (eg Dakota and the black hills gold rush). Don't try to claim everyone supports 90% if people haven't been talking along those lines before.

I am NOT SAYING that natives should survive intact as native cultures non westernized, pagan, etc. I am thinking a Japan scenario where the nation quickly recognizes Europeans as a threat and as superior and they quickly westernize and survive as a Hybrid native/western nation.

I wrote quite a bit earlier in this thread about how hard it is for countries to quickly westernize. No country in the world did that successfully prior to Japan in the 1860s. Well outside the game's timeframe. Despite attempts (particually in India) the gap between Europe and the rest of the world continued to grow rather than shrinking. Of course if countries didn't westernize then they fall behind even faster. Please try to refute those points before you suggest easy modernisation/westernisation.

2) Had Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin NOT been a warmongering powerful emperor and instead been a leader who solidified power he would not have had such an unstable realm. He had just conquered the Maya city states of Xicallanco and all the city states around Tapachula (near border of Mexico and Guatemala). The conquests of all this land in the south and all the Maya lands outside of the Yucatan Peninsula led to a lot of rebellious provinces under his control. He also went to war against the Tlaxcala, Huexotzinco and the Tarascans which were the Aztec's major enemies of the time.

I may have said this before, but a small and non-expansionary American country would certainly have taken longer to conquer. If one American country is expanding against its neighbours that is likely to weaken its overall situation. However even if they all stayed small I don't think the end result would have been in much doubt. Even without early successes against the Maya the Spanish still succeeded in the end, and that was without a major commitment of resources.

The Inca account is even more ridiculous. The Inca Emperor, heir, and next heir all died from disease simultaneously thus leading to the next two sons going to war with each other in a North vs South war, and then the son with LESS backing won thus leading to a government of low legitimacy, instability, and a severely weakened army with little loyalty to the central state. The North side won but then the Spanish invade from the north thus defeating the Emperor's loyal people first and then the central areas of the nation side with the Spanish to get back at the North which had just conquered them. It would be as if in the American Civil war ends, then Great Britain invades New York and the South immediately again declared war and joined the British against the Union.
Civil wars aren't that catastrophic, unless someone stronger is waiting in the wings. Normally other equally strong countries will just nibble at the edges. A worse internal situation didn't stop HenryV at Agincourt. While the English were in basically constant civil war from 1399 to 1485 and that coincided with the hundred years war (from from 1337 to 1453) against France the result was just a small weaking of the English situation, not a complete conquest of England by the French or the Scots.
 

Dafool

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Civil wars aren't that catastrophic, unless someone stronger is waiting in the wings. Normally other equally strong countries will just nibble at the edges. A worse internal situation didn't stop HenryV at Agincourt. While the English were in basically constant civil war from 1399 to 1485 and that coincided with the hundred years war (from from 1337 to 1453) against France the result was just a small weaking of the English situation, not a complete conquest of England by the French or the Scots.

To be fair, Illapa is somewhat right that the Spanish basically restarted the Inca Civil War by deceitfully capturing and killing the Emperor in the aftermath of his victory. English dynastic squabbles and the 100 Years' War were never interrupted by the assassination of kings and a major foreign invasion of both parties. They're not quite comparable in scope or purpose.
 

geodejade87

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To be fair, Illapa is somewhat right that the Spanish basically restarted the Inca Civil War by deceitfully capturing and killing the Emperor in the aftermath of his victory. English dynastic squabbles and the 100 Years' War were never interrupted by the assassination of kings and a major foreign invasion of both parties. They're not quite comparable in scope or purpose.

Right. The Inca aristocracy was divided into a series of royal clans called Panaqa, each one was descended from a former emperor. The Panaqa were in turn split into two major factions, Hanin Cuzco and Hurin Cuzco. Each of the claimants in the Inca Dynastic Civil War came from a different faction, and while it looked on the surface like a simple succession dispute, it was really a back-and-forth jockeying of power between these large noble houses. When Washkar died, it seemed like the dispute was over, but when Attahualpa was killed by the Spanish, the previously defeated faction used that as an opportunity to push another claimant, which restarted the civil war. The spanish played the Hanin and Hurin factions off of each other, in much the same way that Cortés played the Tlaxcallans and Aztecs against each other.
 

illapa

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It is difficult many times to find what is a post conquest myth and what actually happened before due to lack of sources, but as to the date Cortez did arrive in the year and possibly the month/day of the returning God.

That's certainly one interpretation, but there's an alternative point of view (posed by Ross Hassig) that argues one of the reasons Motecuzoma II was so unpopular was precisely because he was trying to consolidate power in a more centralized fashion. He enacted a bunch of laws that stripped power from lower nobility and placed even more constraints on commoners. This is a tough thing to argue either way, as we're trying to get at motivation in historical accounts.

I did not know of his centralization policies and stripping of power from lower nobility but even if he DID do that it only strengthens and adds another reason for him being in a precarious position when the Spanish arrived. The combination of conquests and stripping of power of the lower nobility don't really contradict they just add together for more proof that the Spanish by pure luck arrived at the perfect time.

As to the Spanish sources my apologies I failed to specify that I was speaking of the Pizarro brothers. In their conquests of the Inca empire they never mention native allies except for when they were used in the Siege of Cuzco. They completely fail to mention them in almost every other battle. If they do mention them they never state the numbers when other sources state that there were tens of thousands of native auxiliaries.

@ Fawr. Do you really have a problem we me stating that EUROPEANS should win at LEAST 9/10 times. That means I am saying that Europeans should win at LEAST 9/10 times thats 90%-100% of the times Europeans should win. I don't believe anyone is arguing against this.

I wrote quite a bit earlier in this thread about how hard it is for countries to quickly westernize. No country in the world did that successfully prior to Japan in the 1860s. Well outside the game's timeframe. Despite attempts (particually in India) the gap between Europe and the rest of the world continued to grow rather than shrinking. Of course if countries didn't westernize then they fall behind even faster. Please try to refute those points before you suggest easy modernisation/westernisation.

It depends on what you mean as westernization. If you mean military reforms then almost all Native American tribes in North America quickly adopted guns as a weapon. Also all the Cherokee Choctaw Creek Chickasaw and Seminole by the end of the game were considered "civilized tribes". Just look up the term 5 civilized tribes. Many were Christian they had started using writing in an alphabet, and had large towns and diplomacy with the United States Government.

I don't see why you want proof of westernization though just because in real life the natives failed to westernize that does not mean that they did not try to. Human players should be able to do what the actual nations failed to do. The game also endorses this as Byzantium actually has missions/events, you can form Scandinavia, you can unite the Hindu parts of India, there are many things to achieve what historical people failed to do. Yes it should be hard but whats the point. Military many adopted European weapons so military modernization should at least be easier. As seen by Native American Skirmish Tactics we see where Europeans adopted strategies used by Natives too.

Ethiopia also goes through a military modernization with Portugal's help as they adopt European weapons when they fight Adal who was being helped by Ottomans.

Either way do you see my point when I say that the Spanish used divide and conquer to win AND were lucky that easily dividable factions were there in place at the time of their arrival?
 

Pellaken

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Natives need to be made stronger, period.

Specific arguments about tribes you may or may not personally belong to are not helpful IMHO. I don't mean to attack illapa but his comments read as though he's a descendant of the Aztecs and is very proud of his people. That's a natural reaction and perfectly fine.

I am 1/16th Micmac (as it's spelt in-game) and I grew up in the in-game province of Epekwitk. This province really should be called Abegweit - yet this is the first time I point this out. It's fine to be proud of your people but at some point you need to be pragmatic.

To be blunt: I really don't care about the specifics of the Aztecs of the Inca or the whatever. The main point is that we need to somehow make the natives stronger. Any "specific" arguments, any "long" arguments, just make for counter arguments that pervert the main point - that natives should be made stronger - into something less.

IE every time you say 49 correct things about the Azetcs and 1 wrong thing, you invite arguments that natives should not be made stronger.
 

Fawr

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I don't see why you want proof of westernization though just because in real life the natives failed to westernize that does not mean that they did not try to. Human players should be able to do what the actual nations failed to do. The game also endorses this as Byzantium actually has missions/events, you can form Scandinavia, you can unite the Hindu parts of India, there are many things to achieve what historical people failed to do. Yes it should be hard but whats the point. Military many adopted European weapons so military modernization should at least be easier. As seen by Native American Skirmish Tactics we see where Europeans adopted strategies used by Natives too.

Please go back and read my previous posts. Just because people picked up guns doesn't make them anywhere near the equal of a European army in battles. This was discussed and noone could find examples of where 2000+ troop per side battles were won by a modernised/westernised army against a real European army in the whole period.

There should be a path to westernise/modernise in EU4. However it should be much harder than it is in EU3. Take a look at the Victoria 2: AHD mechanics, and then make it harder because noone successfully did it in the EU3 timeframe (while Japan did it successfully in the vicky timeframe).

@ Fawr. Do you really have a problem we me stating that EUROPEANS should win at LEAST 9/10 times. That means I am saying that Europeans should win at LEAST 9/10 times thats 90%-100% of the times Europeans should win. I don't believe anyone is arguing against this.
90%+ means odds of 9:1 or better. 99% means odds of 99:1. Apart from me being more precise I can see a big difference between the two. Sure they technically overlap but so would saying that the natives should sometimes survive (which is true, but just unusefully vague).
 
Last edited:

Dafool

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Please go back and read my previous posts. Just because people picked up guns doesn't make them anywhere near the equal of a European army in battles. This was discussed and noone could find examples of where 2000+ troop per side battles were won by a modernised/westernised army against a real European army in the whole period.

There should be a path to westernise/modernise in EU4. However it should be much harder than it is in EU3. Take a look at the Victoria 2: AHD mechanics, and then make it harder because noone successfully did it in the EU3 timeframe (while Japan did it successfully in the vicky timeframe).

This all hinges on what westernization is. Westernization in the Vicky era is a very clear thing because by that point Europeans were miles ahead due to industrialization. The EU era is not one of complete European domination. In an era without industrialization, "westernization" or "modernization" are odd concepts.

Here's just a few examples that are odd. The Inca managed in their last years to fight the Spanish in a more European form of combat. They used captured weapons and even began to use the horse. What exactly is that? Is it just military modernization? It can't really be, since the Inca never "became" European in the process, even though EU3 would require them to do so. Or what about Kongo, whose situation I inadvertently brought up earlier? They became Christian, adopted some basic European styles and customs, and mainly existed as a puppet of the Portuguese. What exactly is that? They obviously did something, but they never "became" European.

There are other examples of military, cultural, and economic adaption, but even these two show some of its weakness. It's a lot harder to say exactly what "westernization" or "modernization" should be in an EU game. Europeans simply hadn't shot far enough ahead for their advantages to be so clear cut that we can simply square them up and put them in one decision. In addition, the fact that some states did manage to adapt to the Europeans perhaps highlights that this adaption should not be quite as hard as it is in EU3. Even then, that requires us to define exactly what "westernization" should entail and whether we can really justify keeping it as one linear process.

90%+ means odds of 9:1 or better. 99% means odds of 99:1. Apart from me being more precise I can see a big difference between the two. Sure they technically overlap but so would saying that the natives should sometimes survive (which is true, but just unusefully vague).

Well, given that there are at least a handful of cases of the Europeans being repulsed by Natives, it shouldn't be impossible, which 99:1 nearly is. Also, if you add in the fact that a Native state who lives that 1 time out of 9 still has to survive another attack if it comes, then the chance of survival continue to dwindle towards largely impossible in the long run.
 

Werther

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Lot of guys in this thread will enjoy Sunset Invasion for Ck2.