Petition to make New World nations actually playable.

[illapa]

Despite loving EU3 and Divine Wind, I believe I am not alone when I say that I was incredibly disappointed when our "Rest of the World" Expansions only included Asian improvements. I'd like to petition that:

1st: The Nations of the New World are made playable and not simply facilitate the conquering of their regions for Europeans.

2nd: The fact that it was historically plausible for them to have not only survived but beat back European invasions to be shown in game. The Spanish were only able to take advantage of EXTREMELY unlikely political situations to divide and conquer. The player, since he knows what is coming, should be able to prevent those incredibly unlikely scenarios and save his realm.

3rd: Natives should be given actual population, base tax, manpower, and max army sizes at the start. If you're worried about Europeans conquering them and making them overpowered just make it so when European conquers a native American province the base tax drops (might even give an incentive to ally natives as the French did).

4th: This game should reflect the above points and give nations like the Aztec and Inca EMPIRES (not tribal democracies!!!) a chance to both survive and be fun to play.

The following is more of an explanation of why so feel free to skip it if you must.

I hate how such nations can't even reach their historical size because they can't colonize. How nations that had the largest, wealthiest cities on earth don't even get the tech levels to build a freaking temple. Isn't it ridiculous that a nation like the Inca who had the administrative abilities to govern the Andes Mountains and the medical knowledge to do some brain surgery is apparently given the technology level of an entire nation of retarded inbreeds?

What of the Aztec and Maya with their great understanding of engineering and astronomy that was light years ahead of Europe. Just because Europeans were disease ridden doesn't mean they were light years ahead of the Native Empires in technology. It was only in metalworking and sailing that they were ahead of the world in at this point (1500).

The EU community recognizes that this game is about Europe first and foremost, but the conquest of the New World was one of the most important events in world history. Surely the conquest of the Americas is light years more relevant to Europeans than unique decisions for Japan/China/Korea. New World is relevant from 1492+ while East Asia is not even discovered until 1550 by Portugal and is not even relevant to being conquered until the Dutch start to establish trading posts in 1602.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

I think a way to improve this would be to make two transport ships. One that works overseas and holds very few soldiers, and one that can't go overseas and can hold more.

I think it a major problem that the Spanish can effectively send half of their entire army to the Americas in the 1500s.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I think a way to improve this would be to make two transport ships. One that works overseas and holds very few soldiers, and one that can't go overseas and can hold more.

I think it a major problem that the Spanish can effectively send half of their entire army to the Americas in the 1500s.

That has to be coupled with some other change to make the historic outcome likely, then. In this context as in others, I really don't want a so-called historical game in which the actual result is effectively impossible to occur in the game. I'm not impressed by arguments to the effect that the winners were really lucky so what really happened should be unlikely. It happened, and so the design should make that the base in terms of what is going to happen in most games without human intervention.

Now, consistent with that, I'm all for making it possible for a human player to make a New World nation survive & thrive. However, just like I don't enjoy seeing the OE thrashed and eliminated as a great power by ahistorical AI Western intervention in the Eastern Med in the 14th Century in almost every game of EU3-DW, neither do I want to see the AI Aztecs & Incas still around - perhaps even modernized - in the Napoleonic Wars in almost every game of EU4. Please do not turn EU4 into Civ, regardless of the pretext for the proposal.

 

[Straigthtsilver]

That has to be coupled with some other change to make the historic outcome likely, then. In this context as in others, I really don't want a so-called historical game in which the actual result is effectively impossible to occur in the game. I'm not impressed by arguments to the effect that the winners were really lucky so what really happened should be unlikely. It happened, and so the design should make that the base in terms of what is going to happen in most games without human intervention.

Now, consistent with that, I'm all for making it possible for a human player to make a New World nation survive & thrive. However, just like I don't enjoy seeing the OE thrashed and eliminated as a great power by ahistorical AI Western intervention in the Eastern Med in the 14th Century in almost every game of EU3-DW, neither do I want to see the AI Aztecs & Incas still around - perhaps even modernized - in the Napoleonic Wars in almost every game of EU4. Please do not turn EU4 into Civ, regardless of the pretext for the proposal.

I very much agree. There should still certainly be the chance that an AI controlled New World nation can survive the onslaught of Europeans, but I think it would be best if that were the exception rather than a rule. Many of the Native 'nations' were just as doomed by the coming of the Europeans as the Granadans were to Castille and Byzantium to the Turks. The possibility of them surviving should be very low, but still not a guaranteed thing.

One of the best aspects of PDS games is the ability to take even an OPM and make something out of them. I definitely believe that you should be capable of surviving as a New World native nation, but it should still be immensely difficult and only for a very skilled player, much like the other two nations I mentioned previously who are in similarly dire straits.

 

[unmerged(353072)]

I honestly think this could be resolved simply with a new tech system. Seeing as this is not necessarily a problem of the natives not being able to assemble a army but the problem that they get hit with tech debuffs. I would be fine with them starting out with 0 in all tech areas but that with 10% tech speed and a slow modifier at level 4 is what makes it so very difficult.

 

[Checco]

I really do not understand the desire of those who want to play with a native american nation.

If you like a real challenge there are plenty of OPMs here and there, as well as weak nations in asia and africa.

Why committing to play something whose best outcome is "survive", but at the same time missing all the unique features of playing an european nation?

Not to mention that the timeframe is 1444-late 18th century (announced), so it's likely the game ends without even the usa having formed.

Just which nation would you play whose challenge cannot be found elsewhere?

I think that if the devs really must spend time developing features or polishing the game, the last place they should work upon is the new world, no offence meant.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I really do not understand the desire of those who want to play with a native american nation.

If you like a real challenge there are plenty of OPMs here and there, as well as weak nations in asia and africa.

Why committing to play something whose best outcome is "survive", but at the same time missing all the unique features of playing an european nation?

Not to mention that the timeframe is 1444-late 18th century (announced), so it's likely the game ends without even the usa having formed.

Just which nation would you play whose challenge cannot be found elsewhere?

I think that if the devs really must spend time developing features or polishing the game, the last place they should work upon is the new world, no offence meant.

Most of us, Europeans, are drawn toward playing European countries, obviously, and we are slightly "biased" in that way (some would even say Eurocentric). In any case, people who are from outside of Europe in my experience tend to look at the world differently, either focusing on their "home" area (or focusing on what was in their home area before their modern culture appeared) or looking at the whole world with slightly different mindset.

In any case, in my opinion, those requests that OP named are all valid, however you have to understand that you cannot have the whole world represented in equal detail, as was said by Paradox ppl, their game is simply not meant to work that way (it will be optimized for their own needs, which i understand as EU3-like scope game).

Most of the things you mention, you could even mod yourself in about 15 minutes (give them "proper" governments, give them equal tech group/starting techs as Europeans, and so on) but im afraid thats not going to change your gaming experience by much. The reason is simple: in Americas the concentration of provinces and countries is much, much smaller than Europe (for example), so by adding more content into existing context, youre not going to gain much.

To truly change the game experience of New World countries you have to add more provinces, more tags, that kind of stuff (on-map with which you can interact), and thats where Paradox runs into problems: you cant add endless amount of stuff, because as you add more and more content, game becomes slower and slower (specially with new tags).

HOWEVER, if you spot something seriously wrong, or lacking (a missing country that should be there etc), what you should do is create a thread and provide links (wiki or other sources) to support your claim (a link for a flag sample wouldnt be bad either). If you do that, there is a chance Paradox will add this in game, or at least thats what ive seen in the past few years.

 

[Jess135]

I really do not understand the desire of those who want to play with a native american nation.

If you like a real challenge there are plenty of OPMs here and there, as well as weak nations in asia and africa.

Why committing to play something whose best outcome is "survive", but at the same time missing all the unique features of playing an european nation?

Not to mention that the timeframe is 1444-late 18th century (announced), so it's likely the game ends without even the usa having formed.

Just which nation would you play whose challenge cannot be found elsewhere?

I think that if the devs really must spend time developing features or polishing the game, the last place they should work upon is the new world, no offence meant.

That is the problem though. Almost everyone agrees that native american nations in their current state are boring and terrible to play. However that is very ahistorical and a waste of an interesting area of the world. What people are asking for is that the americas be, if not as good as Europe, then as good as Asia. That would be the correct balancing.

 

[El-Diablito]

I'm no expert on American and colonial history, but from what I can recall the Americas were conquered by a staggeringly small band of soldiers, no? Primarily they made use of the shock of their superiour technology and native allies in large numbers.

Weren't the Spanish forces some laughably low number starting out? Anyone have the actual historic figures for us?

Also, they brought sickness which the natives weren't immune to.

I think sending troops overseas should first off, be hugely costly in attrition not merely for the ships but also troop aboard those ships. Furthermore, European arrivals in the America's should cause devastating plagues among the locals (that do not affect the European troops quite as bad given that we had immunities for most of this stuff). If you want to send 20.000 troops to the Americas that should be possible but it should cost you, it should cost you something fierce.

At the same time, it should be possible to send a smaller force over there, which would in itself destabilize the region due to the ill effects and gain allies/mercenaries locally to fight.

I know this is all pretty general but there should be balance is what I'm saying, Europeans didn't conquer the Americas with ease and it wasn't primarily the force of numbers of native Europeans that won it either. I don't want a simulation of history, but I think we can get it quite close to history using existing gameplay mechanics as exist in EU3 anyway.

 

[Pitt The Elder]

I would be totally ok with most of the New World nations being pulled out of the game entirely, and then modeled later through events and province modifiers.

 

[Dafool]

I could once more add a lot to this thread, but I think it's better to take a look here, Myths about the Aztecs, where many of us already shared some views and suggestions on the matter.

 

[Derp]

I would be totally ok with most of the New World nations being pulled out of the game entirely, and then modeled later through events and province modifiers.

If they did that they'd lose at least one sale.

 

[DanubianCossak]

If they did that they'd lose at least one sale.

Would they lose that same sale if they just carried over exact set up from EU3 to EU4? (how many tags is total? 6? 7? for both Americas.)

 

[Derp]

Would they lose that same sale if they just carried over exact set up from EU3 to EU4? (how many tags is total? 6? 7? for both Americas.)

Well, if they at least put some token effort into making them more fun/interesting to play, that would be acceptable.

 

[kal56]

2nd: The fact that it was historically plausible for them to have not only survived but beat back European invasions to be shown in game. The Spanish were only able to take advantage of EXTREMELY unlikely political situations to divide and conquer. The player, since he knows what is coming, should be able to prevent those incredibly unlikely scenarios and save his realm.

...

What of the Aztec and Maya with their great understanding of engineering and astronomy that was light years ahead of Europe. Just because Europeans were disease ridden doesn't mean they were light years ahead of the Native Empires in technology. It was only in metalworking and sailing that they were ahead of the world in at this point (1500)

The argument that the Spanish were incredibly lucky might hold up if they only toppled the Aztecs, they also conquered the Maya city-states(admittedly much declined) and the Inca Empire. Also the Aztec and Inca were not "light years" ahead of the Europeans in Engineering. And if Mesoamerica was so much more advanced in astronomy in 1500 then how come Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) was the first to advance the theory of a heliocentric solar system?

I'm not opposed to the American nations getting more flavor events and being more exciting to play but as others have said I don't want a game EU to be a game like Civilization were choosing a different country is mostly a cosmetic decision. I want a game were if I just watched the game go by it would mostly mirror history.

 

[Nunn45]

Dont forget, improving the Native Americans is actually a boost for the European players as well, its boring being able to sail over early with your entire army, wipe out a native nation in one or two easy wars and colonize the entire place with ease.
Making things more challenging and historic would not only make playing a Native nation better but also make fighting them a lot more fun.

 

[takedown47]

Dont forget, improving the Native Americans is actually a boost for the European players as well, its boring being able to sail over early with your entire army, wipe out a native nation in one or two easy wars and colonize the entire place with ease.

i agree, maybe there should be some sort of tribal raiding system? didn't magna mundi have that?

 

[Dafool]

The argument that the Spanish were incredibly lucky might hold up if they only toppled the Aztecs, they also conquered the Maya city-states(admittedly much declined) and the Inca Empire. Also the Aztec and Inca were not "light years" ahead of the Europeans in Engineering. And if Mesoamerica was so much more advanced in astronomy in 1500 then how come Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) was the first to advance the theory of a heliocentric solar system?

Light years is a huge exaggeration in many different ways. On the other hand, Native Americans did achieve a number of engineering feats that are impressive, and that's without considering that they didn't have pack animals and didn't utilize the wheel. And Meso-American calendars are far more accurate, especially in the long term, than European versions. In any case, heliocentrism has been around since the earliest days of astronomy. It was not new to the Mayans or the Europeans. And lastly, the Spanish conquest of the New World was incredibly lucky. We have hindsight to let us project our own thoughts onto it, but if you've ever read the notes of the conquistadors, it comes up more than once that they could have been killed numerous times if they hadn't been so lucky.

I'm not opposed to the American nations getting more flavor events and being more exciting to play but as others have said I don't want a game EU to be a game like Civilization were choosing a different country is mostly a cosmetic decision. I want a game were if I just watched the game go by it would mostly mirror history.

It's true that every nation shouldn't play the same, but it's far worse that a set of nations can't realistically be played at all. As I've mentioned many times, the New World we have in game might as well be crafted on Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings, because it's almost all fantasy. Throw that on top of the horrible gameplay in these areas and it makes you wonder why someone at PI hasn't thrown in an hour of their time just to make the few basic improvements the area needs.

 

[James The 1st]

Despite loving EU3 and Divine Wind, I believe I am not alone when I say that I was incredibly disappointed when our "Rest of the World" Expansions only included Asian improvements. I'd like to petition that:

1st: The Nations of the New World are made playable and not simply facilitate the conquering of their regions for Europeans.

2nd: The fact that it was historically plausible for them to have not only survived but beat back European invasions to be shown in game. The Spanish were only able to take advantage of EXTREMELY unlikely political situations to divide and conquer. The player, since he knows what is coming, should be able to prevent those incredibly unlikely scenarios and save his realm..

Not really, even if Cortes lost, the Spanish were going to come back. Plus, the diseases that ravaged the natives meant they would slowly lose by attrition.

 

[Nunn45]

i agree, maybe there should be some sort of tribal raiding system? didn't magna mundi have that?

The simplest idea would be to just make it harder to land troops and take territory outside of Europe and its surrounding areas until a later date.

Maybe add the same attrition hits against ships to the troops on board and remove the ability to reinforce unless you own a nearby port. Moving 10k troops over to America early on may cause you to only have 5k left when you land and be hit hard if you fight against native troops to much.
The option to hire Native troops would be available, but of course they would be the same tech as the nation you are fighting so things will even out a bit with maybe a slight advantage from your surviving Nations Troops.

This would be offset by setting up a nearby colony first and/or future decisions/NI