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thorpemark

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have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

do you think there is a reason for that?

while I don't know if we accepted many from the Sudan during the Victorian era, certainly we got very high numbers of immigrants from Europe and China during that era and it did make our industry GO.

BUT.. perhaps it should be moddable.. some of those numbers people threw out.. 160 million pop by 1907? I simply urge caution when it comes to a desire to hobble immigration to the US.
 
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Signed - for more modding possibilities
 

Sterkarm

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Signed
 

G-Klav

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

do you think there is a reason for that?

while I don't know if we accepted many from the Sudan during the Victorian era, certainly we got very high numbers of immigrants from Europe and China during that era and it did make our industry GO.

BUT.. perhaps it should be moddable.. some of those numbers people threw out.. 160 million pop by 1907? I simply urge caution when it comes to a desire to hobble immigration to the US.

I can only speak for myself, but I want things to be moddable. And yes, I do know that a huge number of people emigrated to the USA, but if USA had been a dictatorship, I wonder what would've happened ;)

Also I think that the emigration should be a little more historical, so the POP's emigrate when there are problems in their home country, and I'd also like things like eg Russians doesn't start emigrating until later in the game, and the Scandinavians start emigrating for real when the dry, wet and severe years occur.

And of course I want to be able to add emigration to Australia and New Zealand too. :)
 

oxmonsta

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

If real life acted like the game currently does, then I would have been born an American also. Instead, my ancestors came to Australia.

Nobody here is denying that the US received a huge number of immigrants during the game's time period, and that this should be reflected in the game. The problem is that as the game currently stands the US gets almost all of the migrants, to the exclusion of other places that many went to IRL, and that worse, this is not currently moddable.

Perhaps many Americans aren't really aware of the substantial numbers of emmigrants to other countries (particularly to the Commonwealth & Sth American countries). Migrants didn't all go to the US.
 

Bejita San

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

do you think there is a reason for that?

while I don't know if we accepted many from the Sudan during the Victorian era, certainly we got very high numbers of immigrants from Europe and China during that era and it did make our industry GO.

BUT.. perhaps it should be moddable.. some of those numbers people threw out.. 160 million pop by 1907? I simply urge caution when it comes to a desire to hobble immigration to the US.

My parents came as immigrants to the USA from Trinidad and I started this thread....
 

unmerged(31710)

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

do you think there is a reason for that?

while I don't know if we accepted many from the Sudan during the Victorian era, certainly we got very high numbers of immigrants from Europe and China during that era and it did make our industry GO.

BUT.. perhaps it should be moddable.. some of those numbers people threw out.. 160 million pop by 1907? I simply urge caution when it comes to a desire to hobble immigration to the US.


First, the vast majority of immigration during the prime years came from central Europe, due to the wars there, Ireland, due to the famine, and eastern Europe -- mostly Jews -- who left for obvious reasons. They all left seeking two things: freedom of religion and better job opportunities. All of this was made possible by the U.S.A.'s (relatively) FREE enviroment.

In my games, I've seen the U.S.A. turn Dictatorial and Germany go free, yet the boatloads keep piling off in New York. It ain't right -- it ain't 'historically accurate' if you want to put it in that context.

As Jimbo would say: "They took yer job!"
 

Gwalcmai

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I'd vote for some modability too. I'm pro-modability in pretty much anything. :)

You can compare the data here with the GC start populations in various places. Argentina should be getting on average an increase of some 9 million people during the GC, Colombia should get 5 million, Brasil nearly 25 million... But all those people are probably going to the USA instead. True, if you add up all the people who migrated to other areas they are probably a good deal less than the people who went to the US, but having everyone migrate to the USA still gives a strange feel to the game.

Another problem is the one people pointed out, when the USA gets mightily screwed up by something or other but still gets massive immigration.
 

Cagliostro

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition?

do you think there is a reason for that?

while I don't know if we accepted many from the Sudan during the Victorian era, certainly we got very high numbers of immigrants from Europe and China during that era and it did make our industry GO.

BUT.. perhaps it should be moddable.. some of those numbers people threw out.. 160 million pop by 1907? I simply urge caution when it comes to a desire to hobble immigration to the US.

My ancestors came to the US during the EU period, not during the Victoria period, but I signed enthusiastically.

Agreed, the US should have lots of immigration, and not necessarily just because they have better sliders, or whatever.

However, the current system is broken. People came to the US because it had a reputation as being a place where immigrants could come because there were jobs and freedom. They wouldn't come to a US with a fascist government, a crippled economy, fighting simultaneous wars with Mexico, the CSA, and Canada - especially when Haiti was sitting nearby as a world-striding empire with great social reforms.

Really, the biggest problem in my opinion is that there are no settings for immigration or religious tolerance. A big reason people came to America is because it was a place where someone could reasonably come and make a future for themselves without being lynched by the neighbors or involved in colossal land wars.

Anyway, a simple includable and modifyable figure would fix the problem for anyone.
 

unmerged(36764)

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thorpemark said:
have you noticed how few americans.. whose ancestors emigrated to the USA.. have signed this petition? do you think there is a reason for that?

I am American and I don't think it should be hardcoded. That seriously ignores the deliberate (and very painful) choices that the US actually made. Immigration was not some freebie for the US. It was the result of the most innovative and successful (in hindsight) land distribution program in human history - and the immigration model in the game should be programmed by someone who understands it (ie not a European). It is why the US doesn't have a socialist bent today. And the arguments over it were the primary reason that the issue of slavery precipitated a civil war. It was the conflict among frontier Westerners about slavery/land (Missouri compromise, Kansas-Nebraska, Dred Scott, Texas, etc) that created the North-South split. Out West, slavery was a "property issue". Back East, it was a "moral issue". People fight over property. They merely argue over morals. Abraham Lincoln was a landgrant attorney for the railroads before he became a politico. The Free Soil party took its name from its support for homesteading and the Know-Nothings (American Party) were entirely anti-immigrant. Those two parties never won - but they were the driving force to transform the major parties. It is no coincidence that the Homestead Act (which ultimately distributed land equal in area to ALL of Western Europe) took effect the same day as the Emancipation Proclamation - during the Civil War when Southern concerns became irrelevant to US policy and Republicans could ram through policy changes. My suggestions (don't know if they are programmable but they are historically accurate):

1. There should be land reform events in non-state provinces (fixed for the US before the ACW - Foot Resolution, Preemption Act, Homestead Act, military bounty warrants, emigrant tax treaties, etc) that increase immigration to that province. These could be random for other frontier countries (maybe dependent on government type) once the US has had its first few events (ie the US still has to "invent" the idea). The downside impact would be dramatically increased militancy and consciousness among every group (aristos, military, slaves, urbans, and rurals) throughout the country - and especially in that province. Sufficient to cause a civil war if done a few times. That is the historic reason no other country implemented serious agricultural land reform. Everyone in society either resented it or wanted it desperately and there was no possible compromise. So countries either avoided the topic entirely or tried it (and went through civil wars or revolts which then determined its success or failure). For the post-Civil War US or after a full civil war elsewhere, the only downside would be provincial risk with natives.

2. There should be railroad landgrant events for every level 1 railroad built in an empty "frontier" province in the US - and random for others. Again, dramatically increased immigration in that province for awhile - and increased corruption buildings and stock market crash risk countrywide. It could also raise the cost of that first railroad.

3. Clergymen should have a purpose in a pluralist government (not a moralist or secular one though). You should be able to create them (only under a pluralist government) for ethnic/religious minorities assuming that you have the "seed" immigrant POP already there - and they should then "draw" like-minded immigrants to that province - essentially establishing immigrant communities there that don't assimilate and POP merge. Those clergymen would disappear with a change in government to moralist/secular and all the POP's would merge then. This simulates late-stage immigration into cities and non-frontier areas.

Essentially these changes would produce an alternative game for underpopulated countries. They could attract immigrants - but they'd be so busy on internal stuff that they'd be irrelevant in the foreign policy/overseas wars stuff. And there would be serious risks - akin to the "Muslim problem" that Europe is going to be dealing with for the next century. In the US, immigration forced us to deal with slavery - in Europe, it will force the issue of social welfare.

Historically that is what happened with the US. I've seen threads here that state the US is "overpowered". Not true. It's just that immigration is costless when its hardcoded. In real life, the US was the most significant power by 1875-1890. It could have chosen to do anything at that time except invade Europe or take on the British in a full colonial war to the death. But then, no one else in the world could do that either.

The US didn't get all the world's migrants during this period. But it did get the vast vast majority of the permanent migrants (settlers to citizens). In every other country, a much larger proportion of immigrants ultimately returned home or kept on moving somewhere else.
 

unmerged(36764)

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Gwalcmai said:
You can compare the data here with the GC start populations in various places. Argentina should be getting on average an increase of some 9 million people during the GC, Colombia should get 5 million, Brasil nearly 25 million... But all those people are probably going to the USA instead.

Actually what that data shows is extremely high birth rates in Latin America - not really high immigration rates. Half the population of Brasil was under age 19 - only 25% of the US was. Most immigrants then were single, poor, and in their early twenties. Some children immigrated on their own (one of my ancestors) but not most. Families generally only emigrated if they could acquire land or otherwise assure themselves that their kids could be fed fast.
 

Gwalcmai

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freebs said:
Actually what that data shows is extremely high birth rates in Latin America - not really high immigration rates. Half the population of Brasil was under age 19 - only 25% of the US was. Most immigrants then were single, poor, and in their early twenties.

Yes, I should've mentioned much of the growth should come from the birth rates. But still, you can see that from 1914 to 1920 Brazil went from 24 million to 30. But the % of population under 5 years of age in 1920 is "only" 15%. Even assuming no deaths during the period, a baby boom by itself doesn't seem to cover the growth. :D
 

bovinespy

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Signed.

Now that I've played a few games, and seen the USA always eventually end up as #1 in Industry, regardless of how many catastrophic defeats they had suffered.

And while we're at it, can we keep them out of Africa too.... :confused: ;)
 

N Katsyev

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I'll put my name to this. But hell, I want it changed in the standard version to at least be true 'American' organization and not just to the bloody US. Every American country experienced a large amount of immigration in this time period, the immigrants should be divided among them, not just all go to the US. :mad:
 

unmerged(35742)

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Signed i am sick of America's high immagration they nearly all ways become number one because of it.
 
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