Petition regarding the Republic of Florence

[neondt]

Nearly done. Looking presentable-ish now.



Factions work as factions are supposed to, events fire on a pulse, decisions do their things. Glad I didn't make anything require Papal opinion or influence, the Pope absolutely hates your guts from day 1 and you don't start with a Cardinal.

 

[Metz]

What if you rename The Medici faction to de Medici Faction?

 

[Galaahd]

Have you considered adding an event about the Pazzi conspiracy?

And some flavour events about Machiavelli and Guicciardini would be nice.

By the way, the Medici could fund the arts (Leonardo da Vinci, Botticelli, Verrocchio, Michelangelo, etc) and support Marsilio Ficino's academy to boost their own prestige & faction power.

 

[Metz]

There could be chain events in Italy regarding the inventions of da Vinci and the works of Machiavelli and others. The republics could compete with one another to have them.

 

[Metz]

230+ agrees. Hopefully in a some patch someday soon it can be added.

 

[Tacticus101]

So Historically, you'd consider that there is not much difference between being a republic or an hereditary monarchy? At the end of the period, Tuscany was ruled by Habsbourgs and Bourbons, you're telling me that it was still a Republic?

Nope. There is a huge difference between a republic and a Monarchy and it certainly wasn't a republic at the end.

Congratulations, you managed to knock down a straw man.

Gameplaywise, neondt proposed a whole new way of playing Florence, and also introduced the possibility to form Tuscany as other nations like Siena, Lucca or Pisa. I'm sorry I disagree with you if you don't see gameplay benefits from this.

Again, Straw man, stop please. I see there being gameplay benefits to all the suggested changes, I did not say there were none.

However:
-The republic becoming a monarchy is and should continue to be simulated by the republican tradition mechanic, adding a new system just for Tuscany is clunky, un-necessary and adds nothing to gameplay.
-Being promoted from Duchy to a Grand Duchy should be part of the new government ranks system
-Any new government form that simulates conflict between a ruling family and others should be a game-wide government or just an expansion to the currently appropriate Oligarchic republic

Ultimately, the only pertinent Tuscany-Specific change being suggested here is adding a formable Tuscany by any nation of Tuscan culture with unique ideas that are different from Italian Minors and Florence. I see little to no historical reason why the Duchy of Tuscany should have different ideas from Florence, particularly in a game within this timeframe and where the Tuscan Traditions and early ideas are supposed to simulate the Republic of Florence background anyway (there is even an idea called Grand Duchy of Tuscany). I also don't feel the gameplay benefits (that yes, do exist) of a formable nation that requires a single province that is taken in 99% of games anyway are worth the effort, particularly when there are other tags much in need of improvement that will make much more difference and will have much more of an effect on the world.

If you want Tuscany to have a mass of events, its own formable conditions that require papal interaction and a special government form then that's great, you can make a mod that will get 230+ downloads, but I doubt the majority of the other players will notice the absence.

 

[Beagá]

Well if there is Ambrosian republic for Milan...

 

[Xinkc]

Honestly, I feel like if Sardinia-Piedmont is worthy of being in the game then Florence and other Tuscan minors should get the chance to become Tuscany in the game.

For Florence's case, at least, it is not a simple case of a ruler sliding into a dictatorship then a duchy as the game shows. The Duchy of Florence, to my knowledge, was set up when Charles V declared the de Medici to be hereditary rulers of the Republic and the Pope, Clement VII, helped shape the institution into a duchy to make his nephew a duke.

After almost 40 years the Pope, Pius V, declared Florence to be the Grand Duchy of Tuscany due to its expansion under Duke Cosimo I. This was then confirmed by the HRE, Maximilian II, about 7 years later.

Just looking at Florence's and Tuscany's history show they're not necessarily the same. Heck the flags and coat of arms aren't the same.

 

[fabbyrob]

Nearly done. Looking presentable-ish now.



Factions work as factions are supposed to, events fire on a pulse, decisions do their things. Glad I didn't make anything require Papal opinion or influence, the Pope absolutely hates your guts from day 1 and you don't start with a Cardinal.

Can you modify it so you get a boost to relations with the Papacy or directly to Papal Influence if the Medici are in power? Or maybe add a "historical friend", though that may be too far... Keep in mind I know nothing about the history here, except what I've read in this thread, I'm just suggesting things based on game mechanics.

 

[neondt]

Can you modify it so you get a boost to relations with the Papacy or directly to Papal Influence if the Medici are in power? Or maybe add a "historical friend", though that may be too far... Keep in mind I know nothing about the history here, except what I've read in this thread, I'm just suggesting things based on game mechanics.

I've written an event that dramatically improves relations with the Pope if you become Papal controller. Of course to do that you need a cardinal, but that's up to the player to acquire. The Medici often had good relations with the Papacy because they'd infiltrated the College of Cardinals (and eventually the Papacy itself, several times), which is not an easy thing to do. Not really the sort of thing that should just be handed to the player on a silver plate.

 

[forrseti]

Nearly done. Looking presentable-ish now.



Factions work as factions are supposed to, events fire on a pulse, decisions do their things. Glad I didn't make anything require Papal opinion or influence, the Pope absolutely hates your guts from day 1 and you don't start with a Cardinal.

That looks good, how did you make that?

 

[Me_]

Events are a definitive possibility, but no promises.

Give me a substantial enough (gameplay) difference between Florence & Tuscany and I'll consider it as well.

Ok, here's my justification:

1. You don't actually have to add any Tags. We already have an almost-useless Tag - Etruria - which exists only for a few years in the late starts. Noone plays it, it cannot be formed, it never revolts. This Tag is practically useless, all it does is take up space. It would make more sense to have Etruria represented by Tuscany and use ETR for Florence.

2. National ideas - the NI of Tuscany are clearly meant for a monarchy - "Grand Duchy of Tuscany" is one of their ideas, "Patron of the Arts" talks about abolishment of the Republic. If Florence and Tuscany were two tags, they could be given two sets of ideas. Naturally, some would be shared, but others could be more beffiting a republic for Florence and a monarchy for Tuscany.

3. More interesting nation forming. Currently, most Tag changes follow the pattern: own provinces X,Y,Z -> get a new flag and some other bonuses. Only a handful of them are more creative. My favourite is Sokoto, where the Tag change is a result of an event chain. I believe that making the formation of Tuscany a simple own X, Y, Z decision a waste and if it were to follow that pattern, then there is no reason to add any Tags. However, I think that it could instead be the result of an event chain about the struggles between Medici and the republicans. A tag change would then be the final representation of the triumph of the Medici, and if the Medici failed (through player's decisions and actions), then Florence would not change its Tag.

As for ideas for Tuscan/Florentine events, I shamelessly bump mine.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-vanities-florence-tuscany-dhe-ideas.838990/

By the way: Why does Tuscany only has +1 papal influence tradition while standard Italian tradition is +2. There were a few Medici Popes, if anything Tuscany should be the one with the bigger bonus. Also, I think that Tuscany should be historical friends with the Pope. As it is, they always end up rivalling one another.

 

[MiniaAr]

I agree with that. Using ETR tag for Florence and having Tuscany in the late game is perfectly fine. The actual kingdom of Etruria lasted for only 6 years (1801-1807) while the Republic of Florence was multi-secular (1115-1532) and became a Duchy and then a Grand-Duchy.

 

[Porsenna]

So many of these ideas are incredible and mouth watering- if even half of them were implemented it would turn Tuscany into one of the most interesting nations in the game to play, and given the relative staleness of the three classic powers that seem pushed by Paradox (Venice, Genoa, Savoy), and a nod to Milan why not make an Italian state (and arguably one of the most pertinent to development of modern economic systems) on par with the big boys?

It would be fun!

 

[Slargos]

Adding Florence adds resource overhead for little to no practical gain.

Some of you obviously do not understand the ramification of adding a tag, and it's ok to be ignorant because you haven't been informed, but it's not ok to be ignorant inspite of being informed.

Reading is good for you.

 

[WeissRaben]

Adding Florence adds resource overhead for little to no practical gain.

Some of you obviously do not understand the ramification of adding a tag, and it's ok to be ignorant because you haven't been informed, but it's not ok to be ignorant inspite of being informed.

Reading is good for you.

There already is a completely useless tag (ETR) that could be removed and no one would cry. Everyone is pointing it out, no one is actually proposing a new tag, but you are ignoring that, and it's not ok to be ignorant despite of being informed.

Reading is good for you, too. You are evidently not doing it.

 

[Knut Skallagrim]

Adding Florence adds resource overhead for little to no practical gain.

Some of you obviously do not understand the ramification of adding a tag, and it's ok to be ignorant because you haven't been informed, but it's not ok to be ignorant inspite of being informed.

Reading is good for you.

People have already stated (and they're right) that there are already some tags that are in the game and never existed, and are just a resource hog since they aren't even used because they take out the flavor of the original nation. An example? Scandinavia.
So we all understand that it's bad for performance to add tags without a real gain in terms of gameplay, and people here is contributing with their ideas to give reasons to developers to insert florence, other than just history.

 

[PiriReis]

The Jalayirids and Doughlat tags are useless too as they don't exist and lack cores in 1444. Furthermore tags such as Lancaster, York, and Jan Mayen are controversial

Source: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Countries

 

[WeissRaben]

Jalayirids and Doughlat tags are useless too as they don't exist and lack cores in 1444.

Mainly JAI, because it doesn't exist, has no cores, AND there is no correct primary culture in the area. Can't remember what Doughlat is, sorry.

 

[MiniaAr]

Adding Florence adds resource overhead for little to no practical gain.

Some of you obviously do not understand the ramification of adding a tag, and it's ok to be ignorant because you haven't been informed, but it's not ok to be ignorant inspite of being informed.

Reading is good for you.

Jup, you're not reading yourself. A lot of proposals suggest using the useless Etruria tag for a Florence tag.