Petition regarding the Republic of Florence

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Alek Sandria
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The switch from Florence to Tuscany can be pretty well simulated in game by just changing government from a republic to monarchy and ranking up with the new 1.12 feature. A tag change here doesn't help in terms of boosting conquests or solidifying your hold over a range of territory. Idea change doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, really; one idea set can equally fit Florence and Tuscany.

There is one minor benefit -- other minors than Florence could form Tuscany. That's a neat goal for someone trying a new 1.12 game as, say, Lucca. Like Ireland it doesn't require a lot of conquest, but it can be tricky (because HRE instead of because England). Still, very much an edge case.

The reason it keeps getting requested is one of flavor. So how do you justify a mechanical implementation of a mostly flavor concept, especially when it's arguably a penalty since you go from republic to monarchy? This is one of the few areas where I'd argue in favor of DHEs.

Tuscany is rife with interesting history with which to write a set of cool events. Some of these could be altered in various ways for a Tuscany that's formed from a nation other than Florence (is this possible?). However, to spice things up more, there could also be a set of alt-history DHEs for a Florence that doesn't form Tuscany. That way, the choice between the two is a lot more compelling. Tuscany might have a bit stronger events than Florence to justify the switch to a monarchy, but the Florence-specific events could still be interesting and fun on their own.

There could also be a new achievement where you take Florence to be the top trade nation in the Mediterranean, perhaps while keeping your number of cores low (similar to the Venetian one). Could include some development-based stuff too, where you need to build up the Florence city really large.

This would be a lot more compelling than simply including a tag switch. It's also a whole lot more work, so maybe lock the DHEs behind a DLC to justify it. I'd actually buy a DLC that focuses on alt-history developments of smaller nations, adding flavor and new experiences & goals to interesting minor states across the world.
 
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For it to be worth the performance cost of another tag, there would have to be a substantial enough difference between Florence and Tuscany that isn't just 'gain one province, hit decision.' I also question whether anyone besides the AI would use the decision at all, considering it'd turn you into another monarchy.

What's the justification for Sardinia-Piedmont then? As Savoy that's currently just grab Sardinia and wait for Admin tech 10. No idea change, I don't think any extra events, it's just a color change.

I'm not Wiz (shocker), but reading your posts, I don't feel convinced that there is much of a gameplay difference between Tuscany and Florence, which is what Wiz wanted to consider it as a possible addition. I do not feel strongly either way, but I think you should provide more definitive examples of how the flavor of Tuscany would make the game a richer experience to convince me, or someone like Wiz.

Seems like more of a difference than Savoy and Sardinia-Piedmont currently has. Pretty much all these ideas and proposals consist of more work and "flavor" than that tag. I wouldn't mind removing Sardinia-Piedmont in favor of Florence/Pisa/Siena/Lucca (as has been suggested in this thread) into Tuscany.

Guys, you're missing the point. As far as Wiz is concerned, adding Tuscany isn't worth it because it wouldn't add to game play. The requirements for forming would involve grabbing two provinces next to you, and the reward would be claims on those provinces that you probably already have claims on. See the problem?

Slap on a requirement for Admin tech 10, a change of ideas with the swap, and require having accepted an event where the Pope can make you a Duchy if you have good enough relations and you have more requirements and differences than Savoy into Sardinia-Piedmont. Heck, you could require it to need Lucca as well for 1.12.
 
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volseraph

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It seems like the real transition is from Republic to Monarchy; the change in the duchy's name and rank is really cosmetic. Events driving Florence towards a monarchy would be welcome—perhaps if Florence is losing a war against the Emperor or the Papal States with RT < 50—and tying the tag change (ahistorically) to that event, switching the country to a more military set of ideas and giving it claims on the other Tuscan provinces.
 
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Panzerschiffe

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It seems like the real transition is from Republic to Monarchy; the change in the duchy's name and rank is really cosmetic. Events driving Florence towards a monarchy would be welcome—perhaps if Florence is losing a war against the Emperor or the Papal States with RT < 50—and tying the tag change (ahistorically) to that event, switching the country to a more military set of ideas and giving it claims on the other Tuscan provinces.

Sounds more like a disaster.
 
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Metz

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The whole Italian peninsula could receive chain events that affect one another. The renaissance should also be a chain that gives bonuses in technology and prestige.
 
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Metz

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Hopefull a future expansion allows for dynamic flags like in Victoria 2. That way the Habsburg flag is used for Austria when Habsburgs rule. Also the changes in other flags with time.
 

Metz

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Also while we are talking about Florence, the Firenze province should be cut im half with the northern part being called Bologna. It is an important place and had one of the worlds first modern univesities (a starting building that it should get).
 

walkingon

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My proposal would be that Florence gets Italian minor ideas, however every time they have an election they have the choice to elect the Medici candiate (with random stats) which costs ten republican tradition but gives the bonus of -5% tech cost while that ruler is in charge.

Then there is the decision to form Tuscany which requires you to be a monarchy, have cored the whole Tuscan region, be Tuscan culture, and have both +100 papal relations and 100 papal influence. It gives you a new tag, the ability to move up one rank, from Duke to King, and gives you both 20 Aggressive Expansion, and -100 relations with the emperor, which amortises over 10 years.

I think this works, because it adds a new dynamic to gameplay as Florence, while still encouraging the historic movement into monarchy. Also the step from Duchy to Kingdom is something that only Tuscany managed inside the HRE, without becoming an elector, so it would be a cool thing for the game to reflect.
 
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Thanks!

I wasn't aware that France, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Portugal, and most other countries did not transition into a modern state during the timespan of this game.

France, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Portugal are already nation states, "Mameluke" isn't a nationality. Stop trying to be clever.
 
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Getting 20 aggressive expansion in the HRE will almost definitely trigger a coalition, with the multiplicative effect the HRE has, especially if you already had some from conquering any Italian province.
 

walkingon

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Getting 20 aggressive expansion in the HRE will almost definitely trigger a coalition, with the multiplicative effect the HRE has, especially if you already had some from conquering any Italian province.
I was thinking 20 after the HRE multiplicative effect, but it's basically to ensure that you wait a while between capturing Sienna, and becoming Tuscany, which took 15 years in reality.
 

WeissRaben

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Also while we are talking about Florence, the Firenze province should be cut im half with the northern part being called Bologna. It is an important place and had one of the worlds first modern univesities (a starting building that it should get).
Uuuuh... no. Really, really no. Bologna is in the northeastern part of the Romagna province. I do agree it could be cut from there, though.
 
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Metz

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My proposal would be that Florence gets Italian minor ideas, however every time they have an election they have the choice to elect the Medici candiate (with random stats) which costs ten republican tradition but gives the bonus of -5% tech cost while that ruler is in charge.

Then there is the decision to form Tuscany which requires you to be a monarchy, have cored the whole Tuscan region, be Tuscan culture, and have both +100 papal relations and 100 papal influence. It gives you a new tag, the ability to move up one rank, from Duke to King, and gives you both 20 Aggressive Expansion, and -100 relations with the emperor, which amortises over 10 years.

I think this works, because it adds a new dynamic to gameplay as Florence, while still encouraging the historic movement into monarchy. Also the step from Duchy to Kingdom is something that only Tuscany managed inside the HRE, without becoming an elector, so it would be a cool thing for the game to reflect.

Not king but special status Grand Duke similar to Austrian Archduke.
 

Loaf Warden

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Again, it's Wiz you need to persuade. I'm merely pointing out that so far y'all are doing a crap job of it.

You seem to be getting confused here. You keep deflecting the proposals by saying you're not the one that needs to be convinced (as though this thread were here to persuade you in any case), and now you presume to speak for Wiz and tell us he isn't convinced, apparently on the grounds that you aren't convinced. Considering that he has yet to weigh in on any of the proposals, I don't see how you get to say that. It could very well be that Wiz is completely unconvinced by all of the proposals made so far, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you (who don't need to be convinced, by your own admission) are or not. So let's just let Wiz speak for himself, shall we?
 
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Styria

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I like the idea of a Florence/Tuscany tagswitch, but maybe we don't necessarily need different tags for Florence and Tuscany, but perhaps unique government forms could be used to represent the shift from the Republic to the Duchy/Grand Duchy. Looking at the Wikipedia article, it looks like the Medici had political rivals in other banking families in Florence, and required public support in order to resist any conspiracies the Medici rivals were committing.

So, perhaps a government form called "Florentine Republic".
• Since a current issue with Tuscany seems to be the early removal of the Medici, with almost chance of another Medici reclaiming the republic, perhaps this government form functions like a monarchy, in that you have a current ruler and an heir. If your ruler dies, you lose 25 republican tradition as the transition between two members of the same dynasty pushes you closer to becoming a monarchy. If your ruler somehow dies without an heir, you get a regime change to a random noble family (perhaps one of the historic banking families of Florence), with an event set to allow a Medici to return to rulership for like 50 republican tradition, since for this hypothetical republic you would not necessarily have any elections, and no Royal marriages. Maybe a smaller regeneration for Republican tradition as well. I'm just spitballing here, though. Just some kind of mechanic to keep a specific dynasty ruling the republic.
• A mechanic called "Public Support". This, I think, should be the meat of Tuscany. Conspiracies formed because the Medici angered other noble families, but failed because the Medici managed to keep the public on their side. So, maybe a function similar to Islam's Piety. At high public support, you might lose have -10% national tax modifier, to represent the ruler funneling his wealth into public works and patronage, providing a reduction in unrest; and for low public support, perhaps greater unrest, representing the nobility and the people actively looking for ways to destroy you. Conspiracy events tying into this, including the famous Pazzi conspiracy, might help to make this more interesting; with high public support, you should have little trouble defeating certain conspiracies, at the cost of wealth, prestige, republican tradition, or something. Again, just spitballing.
• I think it might be interesting to have "Support Conspiracy" be an option for espionage against Tuscany. Since most of the conspiracies against the Medici were supported by their rivals (Ferrara, Milan, and the Pope), maybe limit it to rivals only. Supporting a conspiracy increases the chance of a conspiracy firing, and if the conspiracy is successful, it should net some penalty for Tuscany, and a bonus for the country supporting the conspiracy. I'm not sure if this is feasible in this engine, or better than supporting rebels, but it's just a thought.
• Eventually, you might reduce your republican tradition far enough to get an event allowing the transition to a proper duchy. There should be an increase in unrest, and a noble revolt perhaps, showing the citizens' outrage over this turn of events.
• And of course, a decision rank up your government, to become a grand duchy. It should require you to be a monarchy, to have high relations with the Emperor and/or the Pope, and maybe some other thing as well. Papal relations will be difficult, because although it may be historical, the Papal State often rivals Tuscany, making it difficult to get relations up that high with them.
The Grand Duchy ought to be king rank, and give some pretty cool bonuses for putting up with the intrigue and revolts on the road to getting it.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on spicing up Tuscany without having to Florence/Tuscany tag switch. I do like that sweet Fleur-de-lis Florence has, and would love to have that in-game, though.
 
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WeissRaben

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France, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Portugal are already nation states, "Mameluke" isn't a nationality. Stop trying to be clever.
In 1444? There's a lot of discussion around about if England and France were the first modern states, let alone considering them already nation states, let alone considering Sweden or Portugal, let alone "Dynasty-with-a-country-built-around-it"-Austria.

(The mostly nonexistant, and mostly absurdly different from modernity, Switzerland doesn't even deserve a part of the reply. Well, except that I did. Whoops?)