Petition regarding the Republic of Florence

[neondt]

Can you modify it so you get a boost to relations with the Papacy or directly to Papal Influence if the Medici are in power? Or maybe add a "historical friend", though that may be too far... Keep in mind I know nothing about the history here, except what I've read in this thread, I'm just suggesting things based on game mechanics.

I've written an event that dramatically improves relations with the Pope if you become Papal controller. Of course to do that you need a cardinal, but that's up to the player to acquire. The Medici often had good relations with the Papacy because they'd infiltrated the College of Cardinals (and eventually the Papacy itself, several times), which is not an easy thing to do. Not really the sort of thing that should just be handed to the player on a silver plate.

 

[Wizzington]

I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments, I'm now going to think about this and eventually make up my mind on it.

BTW: That we have other useless tags is not an argument for adding Florence, it's an argument for removing those tags.

The Jalayirids and Doughlat tags are useless too as they don't exist and lack cores in 1444. Furthermore tags such as Lancaster, York, and Jan Mayen are controversial

Source: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Countries

I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

 

[neondt]

Well the argument about useless tag is that adding Florence can be performance-neutral if the Florence tag takes the place of one useless one.
Sure, removing useless tags might mean a net gain of performance, but that's not the point of Florence-advocate really.

Also worth pointing out that "MUH PERFORMANCE" is not a sensible argument argument when we're talking about the addition of a single tag. If we were talking about 20 tags then sure, it's a valid point to make. M&T remains playable (though admittedly performance is an issue) despite not only adding over 400 new tags but also a vast number of additional drains on performance. This by contrast is absolutely negligible, and the argument that it detracts from performance is petty, unless you're going down the slippery slope route of "but if we add Florence we also have to add loads of other tags by the same logic". Haven't seen anyone going down that route yet though.

edit: uploading the mod now. will post a link once everything is ready so any discussion can be moved to the modding subforum.

 

[neondt]

Mod is ready. Here's the thread on the modding subforum if anyone wants to discuss it further: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/mod-repubblica-fiorentina.707574/

Fun fact: Repubblica Fiorentina was the first mod publicly released for EUIV (though not the first on Steam Workshop), being available before the existence of the modding subforum, even before the release of the game (it was compatible with the demo version). Want proof? Check the date of the first post.

 

[neondt]

Would one tag really affect performance that much? I would think that it's just the number of tags currently alive that render how slowly a game runs. Tuscany and Florence presumably would not be around at the same time in game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after working on my mod and having experienced no performance degradation, I'm a skeptic of that argument.

Apparently the number of tags alone impacts performance, not just whether the tag is "active". But your mod only adds 6 new tags, there is absolutely no way that could have a noticeable impact on performance. The performance argument, if one is to be made, needs to based on some sort of slippery slope like this:

Hopefully he will not set the precedent, if he says yes then expect a swarm of other "add/change this country/tag/event" threads to be popping up, and they will be entirely justified because there are plenty of other similar changes that will have the same, if not more gameplay effect.

The argument being that if we add Florence, which would not impact performance significantly enough to be notable, then we would also have to add X number of other tags, which eventually would add up to a performance issue. I don't buy this argument because the devs aren't idiots who don't know when to stop adding new tags. As evidenced by this thread, they take every addition into careful consideration based on its individual merits rather than applying blanket rules for what "deserves" to be added.

 

[neondt]

On a side note, does anyone else find it sad major changes involving every country in the game have less discussions and arguments than this? I suppose straightforward simple changes like this are easier to present and argue for/against but still...

In fairness, changes like that are very hard to argue about when nobody has seen how they work in practice.

 

[neondt]

Re: General Renaissance stuff. Just made this post on my mod thread, which may be of interest: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...bblica-fiorentina.707574/page-2#post-19389729

It an outline (with screenshots) of a new system for great persons of the Renaissance that can move around different employers and create their great works along the way.

 

[neondt]

Wiz, any decisions made?

Incessantly asking probably isn't the best way to elicit the response you want.

 

[neondt]

I'm bumping the topic in case he forgot.

Patience

 

[neondt]

Also splice Romagna, Firenze, and Modena to make a Bologna.

Firenze is split in two for 1.12, so that's something. It does not appear that we'll have Florence for this patch though. Maybe next time.

 

[neondt]

In addition to the addition of Florence and related flavour events, I'd also like to see more attention to the Italian Renaissance in general. I've just finished a system for Machiavelli and Leonardo da Vinci in which anyone in Italy can hire them for 5 year terms, during which they'll provide a constant bonus and allow positive events based on their great works. Something like this in vanilla would be nice.

Spoiler

 

[Wizzington]

We tried guys, we tried.... but the chances are getting slimmer each day. TT

Suggestions are rarely adopted straight away, and never this close to release. I've said 'maybe' on Florence and that 'maybe' stands. I'll let you know if it becomes a 'no'.

 

[neondt]

Suggestions are rarely adopted straight away, and never this close to release. I've said 'maybe' on Florence and that 'maybe' stands. I'll let you know if it becomes a 'no'.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

 

[Wizzington]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

No problem, but please note that I won't be checking on this thread for a while now. I feel like all salient arguments have been made and I don't plan to take a decision until we sit down and have another look at the map sometime after CS releases.

 

[neondt]

No problem, but please note that I won't be checking on this thread for a while now. I feel like all salient arguments have been made and I don't plan to take a decision until we sit down and have another look at the map sometime after CS releases.

Fair enough. Can't imagine there's anything important left to say anyway.

 

[neondt]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-june-11th.861687/page-4

That should make you guys happy

Excellent.

Thanks to @Wiz for considering this.

 

[neondt]

Woo! Time to bring Italy under the control of the Medici.

I'd eventually like to see a Medici vs. Signoria slider like in the Dutch Republic.

Wouldn't hold your breath on this. It's mostly likely going to be a regular oligarchic republic as it is now, which means you lose the Medici after Cosimo dies.

In the meantime, my mod does exactly what you want

 

[Wizzington]

And again that is an argument to remove those tags not add any.

And indeed, they would be removed if that didn't massively break older saves. As it is we'll reuse them instead.

 

[neondt]

Well, maybe some newly introduced terrain imbalances in CS?

Strikes me as a bit off that Florence, for example, has fewer building slots than provinces like Pisa, Lucca, Montferrat. Should Utrecht have more than Holland? Should Verona have more than Venice?

But only peripherally related to Florence.

Yeah that did strike me as odd. Personally I think that hills are a bit underpowered - in terms of buildings and development cost they're equivalent to coastal desert.

That said, Florence was never a massive city. Not really comparable to Rome or Milan anyway.

 

[neondt]

Farmland Hills should be a thing. There's very little, in Italy, that isn't prosperous. Tuscany is hilly, but extremely fertile.

That's a good idea. Maybe Farmland Hills could have +1 building slot and a reduced development cost penalty (15% perhaps, compared to hills 25%), while keeping the same supply and defensive modifiers as hills.

"Never" is a big word. Florence was the city hit the hardest by the Black Death (it went from 110'000 inhabitants in 1300 to 37'000 in 1400), and it became particularly endemic, hitting again in 1402, during the Milanese siege. But, in 1500, it had got back to 50'000 inhabitants - not the equal to Milan's 100'000 inhabitants, or Venice's 102'000, but still more or less the size of Rome (55'000 inhabitants).

Forgot that Rome wasn't so populated in the early part of the period.