In fairness, changes like that are very hard to argue about when nobody has seen how they work in practice.
Petition regarding the Republic of Florence
- Thread starter Metz
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
In fairness, changes like that are very hard to argue about when nobody has seen how they work in practice.
France could do with a chain event of the War of the Three Henrys. Something with the religious wars in France, Edict of Nantes events, etc. Italian states could have events with the Renaissance and trying to persuade the great figures of the time (da Vinci, Michelangelo, Machiavelli, etc) to work for their states. English Civil War, Venetian-Ottoman conflicts, Austria dealing with Ottomans, maybe even an event chain that gets Austria and Spain in a hard to maintain personal union (would be difficult to achieve but possible if you follow certain requirements).
- 2
EXACTLY.
The Thirty Years' War got special treatment in their own DLC (The Art of War). There is absolutely no reason why the Italian Wars should not get the same.
Except there is no particular evidence we will ever get one- though if we do, it will hard not to see it in the light of being a reaction to this very thread.
Depends. Where there are plenty of things the game could use that add more flavour and content, then wasting time on what is (I believe to be) a tiny and relatively meaningless part of the game. It requires a disproportionate amount of effort for the actual benefits and (in my opinion) will quickly become redundant, the changes contained within other developments to the systems (which already represent it well enough anyway).
Further more, there are plenty of other similar threads with people asking/demanding various changes/additions to (their) nations, by considering this suggestion on its merits and then deciding in its favour would create a precedent that would result in those similar suggestions with equal merits having a right to be included. Such additions should only be made as mods or after all the much more significant additions have been made.
I would like to clarify that I am not arguing the exclusion of any improvements to Tuscany/Florence at all, just that such improvements are better served by waiting until a later date, best placed as part of an Italian DLC that includes Italian Republic and Monarchy governments, unique events and special papal interactions for all the Italian states. It would be much more beneficial (more can be added) and efficient than adding lots of Tuscany specific improvements that will (hopefully) later be made redundant by all the improvements that Milan, Genoa, Venice and the other states all deserve.
It would not be a blanket rule.
If Wiz adds all the suggested Tuscany changes suggested in this thread to the game (Unique Government, extra Idea Set, Formable tag, events and papal interaction) based on the merits of the gameplay effects of such a change (what Wiz asked everyone to argue) then logically, any other nation with similar or more gameplay and/or historical relevance would gain just as much from similar additions to them. Rather than looking at each petition for changes to every nation individually, Wiz should look at where the high concentrations of such states are (Italy, Balkans, Germany for example) and work on later DLCs that add those changes to ALL included nations at once.
For example, an Italian DLC could easily add new government forms to the Italian states, add new ways to interact with the Papal states and add mechanics that simulate the outside political influences of Spain, France, The Ottomans and the HRE on those states and the resulting conflicts it caused.
Fortunately the developers are capable of distinguishing between sarcastic straw man arguments and the reasoned discussion going on in the rest of the thread.
Last edited:
- 2
They're also capable of considering each suggestion on a case-by-case basis and judging each individual suggestion on its own merits. Even if they add Florence on the strength of this thread, that does not mean they would be required to add any other specific suggestion. Adding Florence would not set a precedent that they would forever after be constrained by. Someone else could come up with some other tag they'd like to see, and make up a whole list of unique features for it, and Wiz would still be perfectly capable of looking at the suggestion and saying, "This wouldn't be worth adding." He would not be obligated to say, "I added Florence, so logic dictates it is impossible to not add this one as well."
Also, any argument that says we shouldn't do this now because it should wait for the Italian DLC is pretty hollow when you consider that we have no reason to assume there will ever be an Italian DLC. Yes, it's entirely possible they'll do an entire expansion focusing on Italy with new tags and new governments and new events and all that other cool stuff. It's also entirely possible that they'll never do one. And if they don't, that doesn't mean Florence shouldn't get in, just because the DLC that would have fit them the best never existed. Suppose their next announcement is that they're done with EU4 and are moving on to EU5, without ever having done an East Asian DLC. Is anyone going to say, "They shouldn't have added flavor to Buddhism! There was never an East Asian DLC, and that's the only place more Buddhist flavor should have gone!" Why should the pro-Florence faction just sit quietly and wait for the release of a DLC that they've never even hinted that they were planning to work on? It's perfectly valid to request Florence now, and if Wiz can be convinced to add it to the next patch, then there's no reason it shouldn't go in the next patch.
Also, any argument that says we shouldn't do this now because it should wait for the Italian DLC is pretty hollow when you consider that we have no reason to assume there will ever be an Italian DLC. Yes, it's entirely possible they'll do an entire expansion focusing on Italy with new tags and new governments and new events and all that other cool stuff. It's also entirely possible that they'll never do one. And if they don't, that doesn't mean Florence shouldn't get in, just because the DLC that would have fit them the best never existed. Suppose their next announcement is that they're done with EU4 and are moving on to EU5, without ever having done an East Asian DLC. Is anyone going to say, "They shouldn't have added flavor to Buddhism! There was never an East Asian DLC, and that's the only place more Buddhist flavor should have gone!" Why should the pro-Florence faction just sit quietly and wait for the release of a DLC that they've never even hinted that they were planning to work on? It's perfectly valid to request Florence now, and if Wiz can be convinced to add it to the next patch, then there's no reason it shouldn't go in the next patch.
- 1
would love more florenz stuff ... i rly HATe that you start game and then vote medici gone ... WTF no man i play it BECAUSE of the medici xD
- 1
I am not suggesting (please read my previous post) that adding Florence means some blanket requirement to add every other suggesting.
I am suggesting that there are lots of other things they could add that have as much merit as adding Florence to the game. By adding Florence, on the basis of gameplay merit from arguments in a thread, Wiz sets the standard by which other suggestions must be judged. If they are able to match or surpass the gameplay benefits that this Florence addition brings, then logically the suggestion should be added, on its own merits.
Since there are plenty of similar changes that could be made to other Italian states, with plenty of overlap, it makes sense to add them together rather than one by one.
You assume that an Italian DLC will be exclusively about Italy or even that Italian changes will be its defining feature. Every DLC so far has had changes that went well beyond the scope of the title.
In fact, your Buddism example is exactly what I mean; rather than adding changes to one nation like Tibet, they decided to make changes to the entire religion, causing the effects to be beneficial to more than one (or even 3) tags. They also added the flavour along side a lot of other cross-nation changes that had far reaching and game changing effects.
Of course, since Tuscany (on its merits) deserves this change and there are lots of other Italian states, it must make sense (on their merits) for there to be a wide scope of changes to Italian states. If not, then why should Tuscany be special in any way?
Oh right, I mistook this for a reasoned debate rather than a petition by a "pro-Florence" faction.
- 1
To be honest, I dont see anything wrong with player suggestions that can be fun, and add immersion not getting added to the game. You bring it up as if its some taboo, but it could actually be one of the coolest things to happen to Europa at all- leveraging the masses to do the major research and and idea vetting with the Paradox crew essentially making final cuts, and then adding this work to the game for every one to enjoy.
This could be in the form of convincing the Devs to do paid expansions - in which case, awesome. Or it could be the case that these get added to patches, in which case, awesome. I do understand that your argument in general is in favor of the former over the latter - and that is an opinion I'm fine with. But I'm unsure how adding Florence, or flavor to any other state in the game would be a bad thing assuming the opposite (that it were added via patch). The only major details from my standpoint are make sure it works both economically (will doing this impact other things we are doing?), and structurally (can the game handle what we want to do) In most cases a solution can probably balanced to satisfy both. It might mean a lot of chaff on the forums, but the popularity of threads can itself help to determine what would and wouldn't be looked at.
This could be in the form of convincing the Devs to do paid expansions - in which case, awesome. Or it could be the case that these get added to patches, in which case, awesome. I do understand that your argument in general is in favor of the former over the latter - and that is an opinion I'm fine with. But I'm unsure how adding Florence, or flavor to any other state in the game would be a bad thing assuming the opposite (that it were added via patch). The only major details from my standpoint are make sure it works both economically (will doing this impact other things we are doing?), and structurally (can the game handle what we want to do) In most cases a solution can probably balanced to satisfy both. It might mean a lot of chaff on the forums, but the popularity of threads can itself help to determine what would and wouldn't be looked at.
- 2
Re: General Renaissance stuff. Just made this post on my mod thread, which may be of interest: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...bblica-fiorentina.707574/page-2#post-19389729
It an outline (with screenshots) of a new system for great persons of the Renaissance that can move around different employers and create their great works along the way.
It an outline (with screenshots) of a new system for great persons of the Renaissance that can move around different employers and create their great works along the way.
your sarcastic replies are really out of place, unnecessary and frankly rather annoying
- 5
Incessantly asking probably isn't the best way to elicit the response you want.
- 3
One last input: if to justify a formable tuscany is needed a more great area, it can be formed splitting the giant Siena province to add Orbetello to rapresent the state of presidii like we have Gibraltar.
Was created when Spain supported the conquest Siena by Florence preluding the birth of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Spain mantained some strategic port, city and bridgehead to control what happen in central Italy, and to be a deterrent against alliances of Italian states with France.
A two provinces Siena with a well fortified Orbetello from start I think made the game in Italy very very more interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Presidi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbetello
Was created when Spain supported the conquest Siena by Florence preluding the birth of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Spain mantained some strategic port, city and bridgehead to control what happen in central Italy, and to be a deterrent against alliances of Italian states with France.
A two provinces Siena with a well fortified Orbetello from start I think made the game in Italy very very more interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Presidi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbetello
- 1
Also splice Romagna, Firenze, and Modena to make a Bologna.
Firenze is split in two for 1.12, so that's something. It does not appear that we'll have Florence for this patch though. Maybe next time.
Last edited: