Petition regarding the Republic of Florence

[grommile]

Mainly JAI, because it doesn't exist, has no cores, AND there is no correct primary culture in the area. Can't remember what Doughlat is, sorry.

Tag DGL (Doughlat) is a Nomad tech Steppe Horde with Uighur culture and Sunni religion which has no cores in the 1444 start. Its defined capital province 739 (Kashgar) is also the defined capital (and cored property) of tag KAS (Yarkand), which is a Chinese tech Despotic Monarchy with Sunni religion and Uighur culture, so it doesn't really even have a plausible route to existence.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Yes, also becouse Etruria now is covered by Client States

Jup, you're not reading yourself. A lot of proposals suggest using the useless Etruria tag for a Florence tag.

In theory in that startdate should added only client states tag, even if I don't know this is a problem for who don't have the expansion, but I think not.

 

[grommile]

In theory in that startdate should added only client states tag, even if I don't know this is a problem for who don't have the expansion, but I think not.

The dynamically assigned client state tags belong to players, not to history. (There's a finite supply of them, IIRC - rather like there's a finite supply of custom-nation tags, or a finite supply of colonial puppet tags in Vic2:AHD.)

 

[Wizzington]

I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments, I'm now going to think about this and eventually make up my mind on it.

BTW: That we have other useless tags is not an argument for adding Florence, it's an argument for removing those tags.

The Jalayirids and Doughlat tags are useless too as they don't exist and lack cores in 1444. Furthermore tags such as Lancaster, York, and Jan Mayen are controversial

Source: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Countries

I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments, I'm now going to think about this and eventually make up my mind on it.

BTW: That we have other useless tags is not an argument for adding Florence, it's an argument for removing those tags.
I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

So what you're saying is, Florence will be the focus of the next 2 major DLCs?

 

[Te. Kenzo]

I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments, I'm now going to think about this and eventually make up my mind on it.

BTW: That we have other useless tags is not an argument for adding Florence, it's an argument for removing those tags.

Ok, now we will be in silence for your concentration, praying and meditation

I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

20 Tags without adding the province, could be the most great act of trolling in history

 

[MiniaAr]

Well the argument about useless tag is that adding Florence can be performance-neutral if the Florence tag takes the place of one useless one.
Sure, removing useless tags might mean a net gain of performance, but that's not the point of Florence-advocate really.

 

[Metz]

I've read all the arguments and counter-arguments, I'm now going to think about this and eventually make up my mind on it.

BTW: That we have other useless tags is not an argument for adding Florence, it's an argument for removing those tags.



I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

Remember to acknowledge that Florence first has to become a duchy (through event or decision with the pope or however you see it fit) before it can evolve into the Grand Duchy of Tuscany.

 

[neondt]

Well the argument about useless tag is that adding Florence can be performance-neutral if the Florence tag takes the place of one useless one.
Sure, removing useless tags might mean a net gain of performance, but that's not the point of Florence-advocate really.

Also worth pointing out that "MUH PERFORMANCE" is not a sensible argument argument when we're talking about the addition of a single tag. If we were talking about 20 tags then sure, it's a valid point to make. M&T remains playable (though admittedly performance is an issue) despite not only adding over 400 new tags but also a vast number of additional drains on performance. This by contrast is absolutely negligible, and the argument that it detracts from performance is petty, unless you're going down the slippery slope route of "but if we add Florence we also have to add loads of other tags by the same logic". Haven't seen anyone going down that route yet though.

edit: uploading the mod now. will post a link once everything is ready so any discussion can be moved to the modding subforum.

 

[Beagá]

I agree that Jan Mayen is controversial in that its importance actually warrants at least 20 tags.

Jan Mayen costs 250 war score, why bother? No one can conquer it anyway

 

[neondt]

Mod is ready. Here's the thread on the modding subforum if anyone wants to discuss it further: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/mod-repubblica-fiorentina.707574/

Fun fact: Repubblica Fiorentina was the first mod publicly released for EUIV (though not the first on Steam Workshop), being available before the existence of the modding subforum, even before the release of the game (it was compatible with the demo version). Want proof? Check the date of the first post.

 

[Metz]

Anyone else think Bologna province could be added? Split a bit off Firenze, and Modena, and one more that I forgot.

 

[Metz]

Waiting on Wiz to decide.

Hopefully he says yes.

 

[Tacticus101]

Waiting on Wiz to decide.

Hopefully he says yes.

Hopefully he will not set the precedent, if he says yes then expect a swarm of other "add/change this country/tag/event" threads to be popping up, and they will be entirely justified because there are plenty of other similar changes that will have the same, if not more gameplay effect.

 

[Metz]

Hopefully he will not set the precedent, if he says yes then expect a swarm of other "add/change this country/tag/event" threads to be popping up, and they will be entirely justified because there are plenty of other similar changes that will have the same, if not more gameplay effect.

Nothing wrong with changes especially if they are important and can add content and additional flavor.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Hopefully he will not set the precedent, if he says yes then expect a swarm of other "add/change this country/tag/event" threads to be popping up, and they will be entirely justified because there are plenty of other similar changes that will have the same, if not more gameplay effect.

"oh no, I sure hope the developers don't listen to the community; that might encourage the community to share their ideas. It would be terrible."

 

[Challenger2008]

Would one tag really affect performance that much? I would think that it's just the number of tags currently alive that render how slowly a game runs. Tuscany and Florence presumably would not be around at the same time in game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after working on my mod and having experienced no performance degradation, I'm a skeptic of that argument.

 

[neondt]

Would one tag really affect performance that much? I would think that it's just the number of tags currently alive that render how slowly a game runs. Tuscany and Florence presumably would not be around at the same time in game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after working on my mod and having experienced no performance degradation, I'm a skeptic of that argument.

Apparently the number of tags alone impacts performance, not just whether the tag is "active". But your mod only adds 6 new tags, there is absolutely no way that could have a noticeable impact on performance. The performance argument, if one is to be made, needs to based on some sort of slippery slope like this:

Hopefully he will not set the precedent, if he says yes then expect a swarm of other "add/change this country/tag/event" threads to be popping up, and they will be entirely justified because there are plenty of other similar changes that will have the same, if not more gameplay effect.

The argument being that if we add Florence, which would not impact performance significantly enough to be notable, then we would also have to add X number of other tags, which eventually would add up to a performance issue. I don't buy this argument because the devs aren't idiots who don't know when to stop adding new tags. As evidenced by this thread, they take every addition into careful consideration based on its individual merits rather than applying blanket rules for what "deserves" to be added.

 

[Challenger2008]

Apparently the number of tags alone impacts performance, not just whether the tag is "active". But your mod only adds 6 new tags, there is absolutely no way that could have a noticeable impact on performance. The performance argument, if one is to be made, needs to based on some sort of slippery slope like this:

The argument being that if we add Florence, which would not impact performance significantly enough to be notable, then we would also have to add X number of other tags, which eventually would add up to a performance issue.

Yeah I can see where you're coming from, I've already had a number of debates with some of the Province Bonanza users about which tags should be included. There definitely is a matter of consistency that can be a controversial move with fans, but sometimes there is one or a few tags that people really want to be included. For example, the California tag in my mod that I wasn't initially going to add, but public support made me do so.

Perhaps an exception could be made here too, to an OP that has the most "Agree"s I've ever seen!

 

[chrnno]

Nothing wrong with changes especially if they are important and can add content and additional flavor.

You are absolutely correct but there is definitely something wrong with 'petitions' so I am glad Wiz made it clear he is considering the actual arguments instead of the bandwagon involved.

On a side note, does anyone else find it sad major changes involving every country in the game have less discussions and arguments than this? I suppose straightforward simple changes like this are easier to present and argue for/against but still...