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This here leads to several flaws in the game, serious ones.

1> Fighting defensive war against the mongols are hard because they can annex your land if they are the same as you and you cannot get it back except by sueing for peace if you are the same religion.
2> Wars against religious enemies are all or nothing, no real middle ground hardly because they don't realize you've taken some of their territory.
3> Empirers expand too rapidly and then fall flat on their face and are easily taken over. This is especially easy to see now with the mongols and chrisitan iberians which do well early on, but overreach and the other side doesn't know when its bitten off enough.
4> vassals created declare independance when wars end (bug)

Currently there is only 1 good historical element about the way its set up, that is if a marshal or someone takes a province, they become the ruler of that province. However that isn't enough to justify it as it stands now with all the flaws.


So i propose that the provinces don't automatically switch hands, but must be bargained for when sueing for peace, however unlike same-religion provinces the ruler doesn't need any claims on the province. This still helps the mongols out as well since they will be able to conquer easily with no claims needed anywhere.

As for the historic mention of commanders ruling provinces they conquered, they could be flagged to become a vassal of the lands he conquered assuming he is still alive, otherwise they'd revert to his liege.
 

Caranorn

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I like the idea. Though I'm not sure the land turned over to marshal bit would work anymore, which is a bit sad. Though I must say I haven't been in such a situation yet as player (if I wish my marshal to become my vassal I will hand him land, if I don't wish him to become a vassal I send my lord or one of his vassals lead the siege).

Marc aka Caran...
 

Kliwarrior

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Jinnai said:
This here leads to several flaws in the game, serious ones.
2> Wars against religious enemies are all or nothing, no real middle ground hardly because they don't realize you've taken some of their territory.

Shouldn't be enough to add something like "conquered_provinces" in the account of wars?
I mean, all the losses is alredy accounted (as can be seen in the savegames). Shouldn't be too hard to add a filed with the value of provinces conquered or lost (income value could be a good candidate, add the value when the attacker gain a province, subtract when he losses one).
AI should take also this in account when asking/offering peace.

IMHO this could be much more viable (and easy to implement) than use a mechanism similar to those used for wars between christian kingdoms, that is based on claims for peace treaty.
 

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Tamas said:
I don't like this proposal, the current system is good enough.
Try playing against the mongols when they are the same religion as you on the most difficult settings. Watch as they take your land in a war and you have to negoatiate to get in back when you sue for peace, if you still have claims on it.
 

Baron Jukaga

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Jinnai said:
Try playing against the mongols when they are the same religion as you on the most difficult settings. Watch as they take your land in a war and you have to negoatiate to get in back when you sue for peace, if you still have claims on it.

In what situation do Mongols ever have a christian religion? I'm not the master of medieval history, but I'm pretty sure that they never did. Or am I mis-understanding you?
 

Secret Master

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I've found that with the new "vassals make peace when lieges make peace" function there is far less problem with wars of annihilation against heathens (or vice versa). Considering how most human players play, I don't see changing from "provinces automatically change hands" to "sign a peace for provinces" will actually modify gameplay significantly. After all, when I DOW a heathen, I fully intend on absorbing them completely. If the system changes, I'll still militarily annex them, it will just require a few extra mouse clicks. It might also spoof the AI and give it real problems in warfighting, since the game has been balanced to take into accont the current set up.


With regards to peace with the mongols, I have to ask Jinnai why mongols are the same religion he is? Furthermore, rather than overhauling the war system, if mongols really are a problem, then a simpler change from mongol culture affecting certain things to only the Golden Horde and Il'Khanate tags having those special bonuses will suffice. Why change the whole war system?
 

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Baron Jukaga said:
In what situation do Mongols ever have a christian religion? I'm not the master of medieval history, but I'm pretty sure that they never did. Or am I mis-understanding you?
The same way everyone else changes religion. Their children get it from their mother or province. Mongols are no different than any other culture in that reguards and this is also historic as many did take orthodox, although i'm not sure about RC.
Secret Master said:
...if mongols really are a problem, then a simpler change from mongol culture affecting certain things to only the Golden Horde and Il'Khanate tags having those special bonuses will suffice. Why change the whole war system?
That is even worse. It doesn't allow then for the breakup effects that MrT worked so hard to get right, doesn't allow for customs mods, like my Timurid Empire mod, and makes even more tags unavailable for custom mods.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(21937)

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Jinnai said:
The same way everyone else changes religion. Their children get it from their mother or location.

I have yet to see children get religion of mother or province... It always is the father in my experience.
 

unmerged(2456)

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Byakhiam said:
I have yet to see children get religion of mother or province... It always is the father in my experience.
Play more. I've seen it numerous times and i've seen others have the same results. Also I've seen others complain about these effects as well when fighting mongols of the same religion.