Petition for Post 1750 Units for Non-Western Tech Groups

[illapa]

Ok Paradox I've played your games for about 7 years now and it's been a blast. I do however have a bone to pick with you. For immersion purposes I do not like to westernize unless I have to. If I can survive and keep up with Europeans tech wise as a non-European nation I prefer to say no thanks Eastern Tech pride or Chinese tech pride or whatever and try to stay my tech group. I believe that players should be rewarded for this and not penalized by their troop tree just running out and ending at tech level 23-28. More viable ways to play can only make this game more diverse and better right. (as a side note atm there is no real reason to stay small so putting incentives to stay as a compact nation that builds vertically not horizontally would be nice too)

My Petition is for Paradox to give tech level 26+ units to all tech groups and to make these units competitive. Sure western units should be better but I believe that the AI will never be able to keep up in tech anyway this would only affect specific nations when played by human players. Why not reward them for their struggles and make their nations competitive past 1750. I am not saying make their units equal to western units or anything but come on at least do what the Eastern Tech group has and give other tech groups units that can fight and win defensive wars with proper use of terrain and good tactics.

There are several nations where it is possible for a human player to keep up with tech despite the tech penalties.

The Mughals: you tech 45% slower but you're rich so you can hire super expensive advisers, go impious and get innovative ideas and a European neighbor. I have had several Mughal games where I am dark green if not yellow-green tech on the tech map from 1600 onward. but I still hit that flipping wall of my units past 1700. Tech level 28 Indian Drill Infantry loses horrifically to basically every tech group in the game except Chinese and that is only because Chinese get no new troops past tech level 23 the tech lvl 23 Chinese unit is almost as good as the Indian 28 one. Come on paradox I got to tech level 28 as a nation in India give me some credit and give me troops that can fight back. Sure make them 20% worse than European soldiers but 50% weaker is total overkill you already have to overcome so many penalties.

The Ming: I love the faction system. I know a lot of people hate it but my current Ming game it is 1693. I am equal to Western and Eastern nations in military tech (23) and am slightly behind them in diplomatic and administrative tech but only buy 2 points in each category. How is this possible? Ming when under the Eunuch Faction end up with 35% tech penalty. Grab Innovative and Aristocratic as your first ideas and then use the Eunuch faction's adviser cost reduction to hire three level 3 advisers. Annex and release Mongols, Korea, Dai Viet, Tibet, and Manchu as vassals and diplo annex so you do not have to core any of them (remember to take that one province from Oirat horde so you do the great wall decision). Then you end up teching at Ottoman speed but with better advisers. So I am sitting here at tech level 19/19/23 I just defeated Russia in a war that they tried to pull off but now I basically have to westernize because THERE IS NO NEW SOLDIER after tech level 23. That's 8 levels of tech that Western and Eastern have that you don't get new soldiers as. After tech level 26 I get passed by easterners and then by tech level 30 I lose 2 to 1 in battles. Paradox Interactive players should be rewarded for keeping up in tech they should not run into a wall that says good job you managed to keep up in tech...now screw you anyway no new soldiers for you ever again.

The Ottomans: Glorious house of Osman the only world power in this game from 1444 until 1700 have basically the exact same invisible wall. Past ~1720 you just don't get any new infantry???? Why is the only non European easy to play superpower who more advanced than Europe for most of the game's time period suddenly just destroyed by a combination of negative historical events that take away all your military buffs and then even if you survive that you are further penalized by having your units just hit an invisible wall that they cannot upgrade beyond. Again as someone who loves playing the Ottomans, I survived the decadence events, I have maintained my big non-European Empire, I have overcome all the problems the Ottomans historically ran into so why am I running into an invisible wall saying nope nothing for you past tech lvl 26 sorry.

This is also possible as Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Mamluks, Oman, if you somehow survive Granada has a tech bonus too that makes them playable without westernizing.

I know that westernization is the smart route to go in most scenarios but this game is a sandbox of historical plausibility and I believe that if you overcame all this historical and in game problems of your nation from 1444 until 1750 the game shouldn't just say I hope you had fun now Westernize or Die. There should be a choice here that allows other types of gameplay.

The amazing part about this game is the freedom to create the nation you would have liked to have seen historically survive. The more ways to play the game the better so please Paradox add 1-3 more unit types to at least the Chinese, Indian, Muslim, and Ottoman tech groups so that they can actually get new units for the last 100 years of the game don't set up impossible barriers for players. At least let us give it a shot at being relevant without westernizing this whole past 1750 Europeans win the most lopsided battles ever because of a hard coded unit wall is not fun as Europeans don't even have to try, and the non-Western nation get's their previous 300 years of game play thrown in their face. Make players have to outplay each other not just say I am European so I win.

Thank you if you actually read it all and let me know what you think and if you agree/disagree.

 

[loveslater]

"no."

Ok Paradox I've played your games for about 7 years now and it's been a blast. I do however have a bone to pick with you. For immersion purposes I do not like to westernize unless I have to. If I can survive and keep up with Europeans tech wise as a non-European nation I prefer to say no thanks Eastern Tech pride or Chinese tech pride or whatever and try to stay my tech group. I believe that players should be rewarded for this and not penalized by their troop tree just running out and ending at tech level 23-28. More viable ways to play can only make this game more diverse and better right. (as a side note atm there is no real reason to stay small so putting incentives to stay as a compact nation that builds vertically not horizontally would be nice too)

My Petition is for Paradox to give tech level 26+ units to all tech groups and to make these units competitive. Sure western units should be better but I believe that the AI will never be able to keep up in tech anyway this would only affect specific nations when played by human players. Why not reward them for their struggles and make their nations competitive past 1750. I am not saying make their units equal to western units or anything but come on at least do what the Eastern Tech group has and give other tech groups units that can fight and win defensive wars with proper use of terrain and good tactics.

There are several nations where it is possible for a human player to keep up with tech despite the tech penalties.

The Mughals: you tech 45% slower but you're rich so you can hire super expensive advisers, go impious and get innovative ideas and a European neighbor. I have had several Mughal games where I am dark green if not yellow-green tech on the tech map from 1600 onward. but I still hit that flipping wall of my units past 1700. Tech level 28 Indian Drill Infantry loses horrifically to basically every tech group in the game except Chinese and that is only because Chinese get no new troops past tech level 23 the tech lvl 23 Chinese unit is almost as good as the Indian 28 one. Come on paradox I got to tech level 28 as a nation in India give me some credit and give me troops that can fight back. Sure make them 20% worse than European soldiers but 50% weaker is total overkill you already have to overcome so many penalties.

The Ming: I love the faction system. I know a lot of people hate it but my current Ming game it is 1693. I am equal to Western and Eastern nations in military tech (23) and am slightly behind them in diplomatic and administrative tech but only buy 2 points in each category. How is this possible? Ming when under the Eunuch Faction end up with 35% tech penalty. Grab Innovative and Aristocratic as your first ideas and then use the Eunuch faction's adviser cost reduction to hire three level 3 advisers. Annex and release Mongols, Korea, Dai Viet, Tibet, and Manchu as vassals and diplo annex so you do not have to core any of them (remember to take that one province from Oirat horde so you do the great wall decision). Then you end up teching at Ottoman speed but with better advisers. So I am sitting here at tech level 19/19/23 I just defeated Russia in a war that they tried to pull off but now I basically have to westernize because THERE IS NO NEW SOLDIER after tech level 23. That's 8 levels of tech that Western and Eastern have that you don't get new soldiers as. After tech level 26 I get passed by easterners and then by tech level 30 I lose 2 to 1 in battles. Paradox Interactive players should be rewarded for keeping up in tech they should not run into a wall that says good job you managed to keep up in tech...now screw you anyway no new soldiers for you ever again.

The Ottomans: Glorious house of Osman the only world power in this game from 1444 until 1700 have basically the exact same invisible wall. Past ~1720 you just don't get any new infantry???? Why is the only non European easy to play superpower who more advanced than Europe for most of the game's time period suddenly just destroyed by a combination of negative historical events that take away all your military buffs and then even if you survive that you are further penalized by having your units just hit an invisible wall that they cannot upgrade beyond. Again as someone who loves playing the Ottomans, I survived the decadence events, I have maintained my big non-European Empire, I have overcome all the problems the Ottomans historically ran into so why am I running into an invisible wall saying nope nothing for you past tech lvl 26 sorry.

This is also possible as Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Mamluks, Oman, if you somehow survive Granada has a tech bonus too that makes them playable without westernizing.

I know that westernization is the smart route to go in most scenarios but this game is a sandbox of historical plausibility and I believe that if you overcame all this historical and in game problems of your nation from 1444 until 1750 the game shouldn't just say I hope you had fun now Westernize or Die. There should be a choice here that allows other types of gameplay.

The amazing part about this game is the freedom to create the nation you would have liked to have seen historically survive. The more ways to play the game the better so please Paradox add 1-3 more unit types to at least the Chinese, Indian, Muslim, and Ottoman tech groups so that they can actually get new units for the last 100 years of the game don't set up impossible barriers for players. At least let us give it a shot at being relevant without westernizing this whole past 1750 Europeans win the most lopsided battles ever because of a hard coded unit wall is not fun as Europeans don't even have to try, and the non-Western nation get's their previous 300 years of game play thrown in their face. Make players have to outplay each other not just say I am European so I win.

Thank you if you actually read it all and let me know what you think and if you agree/disagree.

 

[Nhadala]

I agree that there should be some kind of reward for keeping up with Europeans and surviving as a difficult tech group, such as Chinese, Indian, Nomad, Sub-Saharan etc...

 

[illapa]

loveslater my post was long enough can you please edit your reply in order to have an actual discussion?

 

[PandaL]

I do find it somehow awkward. If non-western nations fall behind in tech (like in history), it is natural that their military also fall behind. However, if players actually manage to overcome the higher tech cost and keep the techs of non-western nations on par with the western nations, I don't see a reason that such nations cannot also advance their military just like western nations do. It does look like a double penalty at the moment.

 

[Colossal_Elk]

I do find it somehow awkward. If non-western nations fall behind in tech (like in history), it is natural that their military also fall behind. However, if players actually manage to overcome the higher tech cost and keep the techs of non-western nations on par with the western nations, I don't see a reason that such nations cannot also advance their military just like western nations do. It does look like a double penalty at the moment.

Exactly the problem.

Having slower tech? Fine.

Having weaker units? Fine.

Having slower tech and having weaker units? Why? China is the home of gunpowder warfare, the location of by far the most advanced bureaucratic system in its day, and the place from which a great many philosophies and technologies arose. Why do they have to be so gimpy? China fell behind because instability wrecked it. Not because "Ooooooh, those people are yellow and have yellow ideas!"

I found that editing game files so that no one gets monarch point penalties makes the game a lot more competitive. Westernization is easier for everyone and it takes longer for non-western nations to fall behind.

 

[illapa]

Hopefully they release a DLC for each region of the world like North American Natives got and it makes the rest of the world more fun to play especially in multiplayer.

I agree China was amazing in and technically ahead of Europe for the first entire half of the game but I figured it'd be easier for people to accept adding a bit more/better units so I just argued that alone.

 

[Colossal_Elk]

Hopefully they release a DLC for each region of the world like North American Natives got and it makes the rest of the world more fun to play especially in multiplayer.

I agree China was amazing in and technically ahead of Europe for the first entire half of the game but I figured it'd be easier for people to accept adding a bit more/better units so I just argued that alone.

Maybe one thing they could implement is more varied statistical advantages and disadvantages of different tech groups' units.

Western units are just overall the best. Fine as is.

Eastern units are generalist too, slightly weaker than Western, but with an emphasis on stronger cavalry. It is, after all, from which the famous Winged Hussars and Cossack cavalry derived.

Muslim, Ottoman and Indian units have unusually high morale, and decent shock. Muslim should get better cavalry, and Ottoman and Indian should have a bigger focus on artillery and infantry. These are soldiers engaged (one side or another) in holy wars. They should reflect that.

Chinese tech group units should be oriented mostly around shock. The fearsome samurai, the terrifying sight of Chinese rockets, and the deadly warriors of southeast Asia. Their cavalry should be weaker, but their infantry should be strong. A maxed out China should be a serious problem for any country--even a western one.

Steppe nomads should be the pinnacle of cavalry early, as they are, but get a few more units so they aren't beyond saving by 1500 if they don't have cores on others' lands. Their infantry should be rotten, though.

Sub-Saharan and American tech group countries should be based around morale. Since they're usually going to be lagging behind, they shouldn't be insta-rout units that get rolled like usual.

 

[marnues]

You want better troops but you don't want to Westernize? I don't think the game has a problem.

 

[Colossal_Elk]

You want better troops but you don't want to Westernize? I don't think the game has a problem.

Why does westernization have to be the answer for beating western powers, though? The game gets boring when every single playthrough becomes COLONIZE & WESTERNIZE LOLZ. It'd be nice to forge an empire that can stand on its own without needing to adopt Western ways--or at least a means by which non-western ways aren't inherently inferior.

 

[joak]

I found that editing game files so that no one gets monarch point penalties makes the game a lot more competitive. Westernization is easier for everyone and it takes longer for non-western nations to fall behind.

But unlike some games, the point of the series isn't to have all nations be competitive. The real world was historically unbalanced.

I don't really object to the idea, but at the same time "fantasy" units that imagine a distinctively east Asian technology path and military doctrine that the world didn't see would be a bit jarring in the out of the box game.

 

[marnues]

But unlike some games, the point of the series isn't to have all nations be competitive. The real world was historically unbalanced.

I don't really object to the idea, but at the same time "fantasy" units that imagine a distinctively east Asian technology path and military doctrine that the world didn't see would be a bit jarring in the out of the box game.

That sums up my thoughts on the issue. Westernizing is already ahistorical for most countries in the game, I don't see a benefit to providing other mechanics for remaining competitive with European powers.

 

[unmerged(762254)]

I think this is a fantastic idea for a mod. But as others have pointed out, vanilla isn't a game about strict balance. That being said, if anyone knows a mod which does this I'd love to play it. So long as it was completely optional, or perhaps a bit of ahistorical DLC a la Sunset Invasion, it would be a good thing to implement. As part of the core game though? I'm not entirely sold.

 

[Jorlaan]

No countries just STOPPED developing...anything at any point in history that I am aware of. Yes some countries went in to isolation but they continued making inward advances, even if they were very slow.
The idea that for "less advanced" nations that they would just give up and stop advancing in the face of some very advanced and threatening countries is ABSURD.

I got NO PROBLEM that lesser teched nations have lesser units, but let them at least continue to advance; not just stop suddenly with units that are already outdated 100 years before they get them and say "well we're done now".

It makes me think of an example. Imagine a country is using all muskets for its army. Another nation comes along and kicks their asses using troops wielding bolt action rifles.
The nation that got its ass kicked is not going to just keep using those muskets, it is going to do everything it can get get its hands on those new bolt action's. Even if they can only get cheaper less advanced ones THEY'LL TAKE EM, rather than continue being even further behind, which threatens the sovereignty of their nation.

I am not asking for lower tech nations to get units and tech on par with western. I am however asking that they not just STOP advancing while others keep going.

 

[Amosblanco]

The logic for Paradox for non'western powers to be competitive is through westernization--After you neighbor a western country, you started to westernize with around a 20 year period of domestic instability, and then BOOM! You become almost same as western country!

It is SICK! It is really AHISTORICAL.... Westernization, for many countries, is a very gradual and hard process instead...

 

[joak]

No countries just STOPPED developing...

The Chinese get their last unit at tech 26 (29 if you count cannon), westerners at tech 30. They gain the fire and shock bonuses that come with tech. And, of course, there is the westernization option.

This isn't really a request to give nations a path forward. It's a request to come up with an alternate "tech tree" to give more flavor to non-European countries. There's nothing wrong with saying you'd like that, but it does seem to me outside the scope of the vanilla game and better suited for a mod.

And I know this gets annoying when people ask for a feature on these forums, but it also seems like a really easy mod--it's just adding units to a couple files, right? The only problem is balance and flavor.

 

[bleakie]

I would rather take away the westernization option in exchange for giving units of equal power for equal tech. The non-western groups are already punished by the extra tech cost, and further penalties are unfair towards countries that worked hard to equalize the tech (just like the OP). Otherwise, what can "equal tech" possibly mean?

 

[Thrake]

A bit more of balance would be nice indeed. I love not westernizing too when not western. Well, in some situations ofc, there is no real choice, because some tech groups are just too horrible. The worst situation is in America. I'm on an Aztec playthrough. I've fully westernized way before AI did. Now, not only do I struggle against the Europeans, but I also struggle against North American natives, while I have westernized one century earlier, some natives still not do it, but thanks to the tech boost they got for reforming their government, they still sometimes beat me with 4/5 less times troops (I fied very few troops because of ridiculously low manpower). It's nice they got a buff to resist longer against Europeans, but it creates really weird situations for Mesoamericans and South Americans.

It's a fun game, but this is the most awkward situation I faced. That's weird too that all vassals that I might release are all protectorates...

 

[krelian]

Yep, the whole idea of westernisation of the military is based pretty much on Russia as far as I can tell. I'm struggling to come up with another example in EU time frame.

Taking away westernisation, maybe even slightly increasing tech penalties, but increasing the quality of troops, such that an Indian or Chinese level 28 unit is as good as a level 28 Western unit would be my choice. Make it harder to reach level 28, but if you take ideas like Innovative, conquer and develop your economy to support 3 level 3 advisors at all times, then you'd be able to field competitive units.

 

[grand_Turk]

I totally agree with what illapa says.