Petition for a statement on the price change

[SeraphAscending]

For obvious reasons, the community is not a fan of flavour pack prices being almost doubled, especially retroactively.
I would like to use this post to get a petition to show PDX that there is an overwhelming need for a justification for this price change.

Maybe there is a good reason for this. But it is certainly not an obvious one.
Assuming a good reason on no grounds is naive given the circumstances of the general success of CK3.

We deserve more than just a notification that this is happening. An official statement on the reasoning is in order.
If there is a good reason for this, tell us.
If you refuse to give a justification for this change of pricing policy, the community will be justified in assuming that there is none.

Please use the "Agree" reaction, so we can get some numbers for the community dissapproval.

---

EDIT:
In the Announcement of the Friends and Foes Event Pack @pdx-sanke has given two statements.

Yes, we did adjust the Flavor Packs to a price that is closer to their real value before releasing this one. That should not be a secret or something that people feel it is subterfuge.

Now, did we just adjust Flavor packs for this reason? Not at all. We wanted to make this adjustment for a long time, but we wanted to:
a) make sure they were all out before doing this change. In fact, huge majority of players acquired those DLCs for less than $4 once you consider Royal Edition, Expansion Pass, regular sales, etc. And these players represent again a huge majority of CK players as well.
b) make sure as many players as possible would benefit from the previous price point. That is why we are not changing the Royal Edition or Expansion Pass prices even with this change. They will stay that way. That is why we announced it ahead of time, so players can also take advantage of the current standalone.

Flavor packs were undervalued. Now, you may disagree how much they should exactly be worth it, or even if they should be worth the same. That's fair. And of course, some people will think they are worth nothing and everything in this game should be free, but I have no arguments for them, unless saying that you can always play mods and we will continue to support them and also add more free stuff in the game.

But if you start to check what you get with $7 in other titles, PDX or not, the difference is clear. Even for CK2, I am not sure it is fair to compare DLCs done back in 2013-2014, that are now old enough to play Roblox, with these DLCs. For some reason, people understand that many things get expensive over time, due to inflation, production costs, salaries, etc, but videogames should always stay the same.

I am not here to argue that something is cheap or not, it is worth your money or not. This is a personal call. Are you evaluating buying Friends and Foes instead of buying food, paying your rent or something important? Please don't. But do you enjoy this game and spend enough time with it to make it a good investment vs another drink or something else that you will play for 30 minutes and stay there in your library forever? Then yes, think about it.

No, we know they have different perceived values. We had a big debate about it. In the end, we decided that moving forward, we aim to achieve the same experience with future Flavor Packs closer to Fate of Iberia, and we definitely wanted to avoid confusion when you start to have 23 different price points (looking at you, older titles).

We decided that doing the move was fine, because (as I mostly wrote above):
a) The huge majority of players already own these DLCs and paid a very cheap price for both of them (average is less than $4). Even if you argue that it is the price you would like for Northern Lords, that means you paid less than Fate of Iberia should be, so again, all in all, things equalized;
b) we are announcing in advance, so players that are here right now, still have the same chance as others of acquiring it cheaper and finally
c) Royal Edition and Expansion Pass prices will not change. If you buy them, you will get the same price as the huge majority above.


Unlike what people think, "business" and/or "suits" (where I put myself for example) do not dictated what is developed. It is a conversation between all of us, and there are other factors besides money (is it cool? Is that what the team wants to make? How hard is to make it right now?, etc). I'd prefer to save discussion about future content and we are doing next to the studio and the Game Director, as I don't feel comfortable talking about it.

 

[Studoku]

Hello, I like money

 

[Slow Bathroom]

Obviously they think they will make more money if they raise the price. It doesn't matter how many people get mad here if a bunch of casuals with no standards buy the dlc anyway.

 

[Amtep]

It seems they want a surge of people to buy the DLCs before September 13, even at the expense of sales after that. Maybe they need to pump up some numbers before a shareholder meeting?

 

[SeraphAscending]

I do think there might be legitimate reasons for this price change.
@Tschobo has laid out some likely scenario here:

CK3 isn't a dead game. Look at my boy Imperator Rome or Total War: Troy if you want to see a dead game.

I also believe that they haven't done the price increase only for greed alone, but because they completely miscalculated everything at the beginning and haven't had the slightest idea where CK3 will go after the Release of the Norse Lords.

Warning: This will be a long and maybe controversial post.

They stated from the beginning, even before the launch that they planned to have the major packs cost 30 EUR/USD and the flavour packs 7 EUR/USD and we have seen with the Pack of Northern Lords how they imagined the Flavour Pack to go:

• New Clothes, Looks and Haircuts for a Culture Group or Region.
• A handful of new music pieces.
• A few new decisions and mechanics regarding the Culture, Faith or Region (Varangian Adventures, Blots etc.).
• A few new events, some for that culture and some for the entire game.
• Maybe some new dynasty choices and map overhauls

And with that they said: Yeah that would be around 7 Bucks. And it was OK for that price. The Art and Story team could focus on that stuff between the Major Packs. But they didn't expect Royal Court coming and becoming such a mess. Suddenly there were Courtrooms, Artifacts and Inventory as well as Weaponry. A DLC like Royal Court was a risky decision and it didn't work very well and they should have played it safe with some more popular choices (Religion Overwork/Societies or Governmental Overwork/Trade Mechanics, the list goes on). Artifacts and the Culture Rework were good, but the Court still has some issues to this day.

And after a messy first Major Pack they had to deliver a good pack as quick as possible. And with Iberian Struggle they mostly did that:

• They had new Clothes for the Andalusians as well as the other Cultures in Iberia
• A handful of new tracks and music pieces
• New Mechanics that weren't just additional decisions or additional stuff that they added like in Northern Lords. So they introduced the Struggle Mechanic additionally to some other decisions and choices.
• An overhaul of the Region, some changes in other territories due to the patch, some new rulers and some fixes on the map.
• Additional Artifacts, Thrones and other assets (I really thought there was a Court-room as well but I rarely played in the medditerranean region and they still winged it for now)

And most of the players were so happy with Fate of Iberia, so much so that the discontent over Northern Lords rose (as the mechanics where much less, there were no specific artifacts, no great additions and the additions existing paled a bit as it was just a bunch of smaller decisions and the Adventure Mechanic).

And that is why they messed up:

• New Artifacts and Courts will take additional work, but are necessary to satisfy some of the players, as they were and are a bit discontent about the design choices: every Bone is a Skull, some descriptions of tapestry and statues don't fit the look, there are too few court-rooms for the game and they will have to update it continously or let some mechanics die.
• Many players will expect that there are groundbreaking changes like the Struggle Mechanic for new regions and they can't really go back to something like Northern Lords where the additions pale in comparison. Something like Northern Lords couldn't be released to positive reception right now.
• With Royal Court they not only had problems with the release of it, but it also created additional work for future flavour packs, but nobody likes to admit that some mistakes were made.

They calculated with 7 Bucks for a flavour pack that is the size of Northern Lords, but they have to deliver much, much more. And that costs a lot of ressources and developers that have to implement everything aren't cheap and as they probably have seen in the recent figures the decision was made. In my point of view Northern Lords is becoming the worst DLC of CK3 with this price increase as it is just too little for such a price. Fate of Iberia you can defend somehow as it brings a tad more onto the table. But here we come to the next issue of CK3. The subpar communication around CK3.

Since the Release of Northern Lords the communication of CK3 wasn't that well. Not only here in the forums, but also on Social Media. They lost a lot of steam, espescially around Royal Court. Well the issues were there, but not that grave. But the communication around the price increase is absymal. A short note about it and that was it. Not a thing why the price increase was necessary, not even a half-assed explenation that you would expect from somebody like EA or Square Enix. If they explained the price increase properly, the backlash would still be there, because of the high price, but it wouldn't be that huge.

So I am certain that the Price Increase wasn't done because of greed alone. It was also done because because of miscalculations and some naive decisions (like having the Court system so early and add Artifacts, two design-heavy additions) and it was made worse by a weak communication around it and other issues in that regard. At least they could have started some more positive news before that after a very long summer break. But they didn't think about that.

I don't hate Paradox now, and I won't condem them right now until I see the next flavour pack and what and how much it contains, but I am extremely disappointed by the communication around CK3 and how they are handling it. It is still a good game that has huge potential, but they are currently burning up a lot of goodwill.

The point is that this is not what has been communicated.
A mere announcement of major change in pricing policy is very poor communication. It does not inspire trust. Especially in an Industry that had every major publisher turn awful over the years, it is perfectly reasonable to be suspicious over indications of a turn for the worse.

This is why communication is important. In my eyes the Stellaris team has earned a lot of trust with the custodian initiative and the transparency the devs have had recently. It's great. They clearly communicate about mishaps and they also clearly state that the custodian initiative while providing free updates to the game is a luxury they can only pay for if people buy the DLC.
And so far it's working great.
If they came with a price change, i would be significantly less suspicious. I would still ask for a reasoning, though. But sadly, the CK3 dev team is not as transparent as the Stellaris team. And extending too much goodwill on very little grounds is naive.

 

[Zylathas]

There will be no statement, why do you think they posted this in the middle of august in a period where there has been no dev communication for weeks and the forum have almost no viewers or posts?

 

[SeraphAscending]

There will be no statement, why do you think they posted this in the middle of august in a period where there has been no dev communication for weeks and the forum have almost no viewers or posts?

I don't necessarily think that's the case.
Other PDS titles have rather good communication. Including Game Directors taking personal responsibility for mishaps.
Maybe CK3 can do that, too. We'll have to see.

 

[SeraphAscending]

I have updated the OP to include statements made by Product Manager @pdx-sanke .

Make of these statements what you will, i just think it was very important for us to finally get any statement at all on this.

 

[Arcvalons]

I blame capitalism.

 

[Tschobo]

I have updated the OP to include statements made by Product Manager @pdx-sanke .

Make of these statements what you will, i just think it was very important for us to finally get any statement at all on this.

Yeah. For me it is the easier route than saying: We kinda botched our calculations from the beginning and with Royal Court and Artifacts we have to do much more work than expected in the flavour pack. I also stand my ground with saying that Northern Lords is absolutely overpriced with that price change, as it has half of the content of Fate of Iberia (and with that it is also the worst DLC of CK3 in my honest opinion).

 

[Ostermex]

I do think there might be legitimate reasons for this price change.
@Tschobo has laid out some likely scenario here:


The point is that this is not what has been communicated.
A mere announcement of major change in pricing policy is very poor communication. It does not inspire trust. Especially in an Industry that had every major publisher turn awful over the years, it is perfectly reasonable to be suspicious over indications of a turn for the worse.

This is why communication is important. In my eyes the Stellaris team has earned a lot of trust with the custodian initiative and the transparency the devs have had recently. It's great. They clearly communicate about mishaps and they also clearly state that the custodian initiative while providing free updates to the game is a luxury they can only pay for if people buy the DLC.
And so far it's working great.
If they came with a price change, i would be significantly less suspicious. I would still ask for a reasoning, though. But sadly, the CK3 dev team is not as transparent as the Stellaris team. And extending too much goodwill on very little grounds is naive.

The problem I have with Tschobo's original statement here is that it really represents a slippery slope of pricing:

Northern Lords comes out, no Artifacts, no Courtrooms - $7
Royal Court comes out - $30
Fate of Iberia comes out, new Artifacts and Courtroom - $7

Now, I do respect the argument of "Major DLC included more work for all future Flavor Packs, so price for future Flavor Packs should increase".

But that's not what is happening, as we can see that both NL and FoI will increase in price, where only arguably FoI's price should change.
And the problem starts here.

Let's say new Major DLC comes out, and it's all about Republics, and introduces new mechanics everywhere in the world.
And then after that, a new Flavor Pack comes out for Venice, let's say. And it has an increased work load because it has to include additions for mechanics included in both Royal Court (Courtrooms and Artifacts) and The Republics Major DLCs

Following the original argument of "More work on Flavor Pack means bigger price", logically, the price of a future Flavor Pack after a Major DLC (if it includes additions to new mechanics represented in the Major DLCs) must increase.
And since we have now set precedent that ALL Flavor Pack prices increase even when one is more loaded in content than the other, that would give us something like this.

Northern Lords - $~20
Royal Court - $30
Fate of Iberia - $~20
The Republic - $30
Venice Flavor Pack - $~20

In my opinion, the price increase that will happen is mostly due to the sadly everpresent greed of Paradox, enacted upon seeing a legitimate reason to present to the audience (Worldwide inflation).
But they overreached, almost doubling the price of Flavor Packs. And I honestly believe if they increased the price to $10, people would be much more understandable.
Sad.

 

[Monalba]

Obviously they think they will make more money if they raise the price.

I don't think that's the main/only issue.

I think the issue is the new ''Event packs''.
Flavour packs were 7€, Event packs will now be 5€.
You rarely do such a thing. Those two packs will be competing against each other.
To avoid that, they decided to simply move the prince range of the Flavour pack and leave it as a middle ground between the expensive expansions and the cheap event packs.
Marketing wise, it makes sense. It's the only thing you can really do.

As a customer, is a kick in the shin.
And I'll say it again even if it's off topic, increasing the price going forward, sigh, that's fine, as long as the product is juicier.
But retroactively?
No offense to those who worked on it, but northern lords is just not worth 12€.
Worst thing is, Paradox DLCs never go below 50% sale, meaning the cheapest new players will ever see Northern Lords is 6€. And even at that price, it ain't wort it, son.

 

[grommile]

Paradox DLCs never go below 50% sale, meaning the cheapest new players will ever see Northern Lords is 6€.

Sort of.

The first Expansion Pass remains available, and has not had a price increase.

 

[SeraphAscending]

I also stand my ground with saying that Northern Lords is absolutely overpriced with that price change, as it has half of the content of Fate of Iberia

Sadly, i have to agree that Northern Lords simply doesn't have as much content - especially, because it doesn't have interactions with the Royal Court DLC (like the court room and artifacts) like Fates of Iberia does.

As a personal bias, i enjoy Northern Lords tremendously, but that's more a matter of taste rather than content quality/quantity.

I do hope that in the long run, they might pull a "custodian initiative" move and retroactively give minor updates to older content packs to balance them out.
That'd be great, but it will not happen anytime soon, unfortunately.