Petition: Don't remove supply and demand

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Rabid

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I'm sure the addition of all these new provinces and trade goods brought up all these silly pricing issues. I'm happy the system got killed.

This is actually a very good point, I am strongly swayed towards the idea that the old system was removed precisely because adding all the new provinces (and a few new trade goods) totally screwed up the (already not really very functional) calculations and would have required a total rework anyway.

It also had extremely marginal impact on the game outside of the player being able to specifically try to increase the price of a small handful of goods under some circumstances, which could be meaningful on a small scale but would still not represent a significant increase in real income under anything other than the most contrived circumstances.
 

Golladan

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But the current system was noticeable and something you could react to if you bothered actually make an effort. You were given data about supply and demand and what affected the price by how much from the province window and from the trade goods page in the ledger; if there then was something really specific you wanted to check---say finding everything which possibly could effect the price of slaves---you needed to look in the files, but you always have to do that for something really specific. So yes it was noticeable and something you were able to react to, so as far as I can see it is being dumbed down to soothe people who don't want to think about the game---i.e. casual gamers.
Why look in the game files? You can see what affects the demand of a trade good in-game by mousing over the demand %.




The confusion may come from the tooltip saying "Demand in capital XXX", which can cause someone to think that only capitals demand a trade good.

The obscure part is how the amount of the good produced translates into the supply %, and how those demand modifiers translate into the global demand %. Neither of which need to be spelled out. You increase the goods produced, you increase the supply. You increase the demand of your provinces, you increase the demand.
 

Wagonlitz

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Why look in the game files? You can see what affects the demand of a trade good in-game by mousing over the demand %.
That was what I said though. I said that you could get the data from the province window. As you can see in your screen shot you don't get all information---like say max demand and min supply---which is where you need to consult the game files.
 

dexterstclaire

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Not checked in a while but is it not technically feasible? Coast of Africa to Brazil to Caribbean to Europe?
That part is definitely feasible, but it's only two sides of the triangle. You can simulate the sale of slaves to North America and the subsequent export of cotton, tobacco etc. to Europe, but the sale of textiles, weapons etc. from Europe to Africa is missing. Doing that makes a trade loop and thus, game crashes, which is unfortunate.
 

loup99

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Did anyone confirm that this was removed for the optimisation or if it was going to be moddable?
 

Iamdead7

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I love Victoria 2's economic system because there are actual entities that create the demand for certain products and resources. It's complicated but incredibly fun and rewarding to deal with


EU4's old supply and demand system was utter nonsense that added nothing to the game. Either have realistic reasons for demand or drop it to increase performance. I'm perfectly ok with the route they are taking as much as I would like EU4 to have a full fledged economic system, but that's a whole different problem entirely with the core concepts of the game's design (as fun as it is)
 

Grubnessul

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Did anyone confirm that this was removed for the optimisation or if it was going to be moddable?
Wiz confirmed it's neither. Not for optimisation and not modable, unless you go back to the previous patch.

I think it is a positive thing that Paradox is still reviewing the game and making it clearer to understand (and not dumbing it down; as both the terrain stuff and supply/demand were never really in the player's influence anyway).
 

loup99

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Wiz confirmed it's neither. Not for optimisation and not modable, unless you go back to the previous patch.

I think it is a positive thing that Paradox is still reviewing the game and making it clearer to understand (and not dumbing it down; as both the terrain stuff and supply/demand were never really in the player's influence anyway).
For this too? Oh, I thought it only was for the terrain as the in threads I that read he only talked about that. :p
 

loup99

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This was removed for three reasons..

1) it had no impact that the player could effect.
2) most did not even know about it..
3) it was a severe performance drain..
Thank you, for the clarification, the performance issue kind solves any confusion.
 

atwix

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i never ever saw this system ingame. It isn't included in the tutorials (is trade even in any tutorial?)

Does it even affect the income of trade much if you step in this game of supply and demand?
 

the cool guy

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i never ever saw this system ingame. It isn't included in the tutorials (is trade even in any tutorial?)

Does it even affect the income of trade much if you step in this game of supply and demand?

There is a trade tutorial but it only talks about nodes and does a really bad job.
 

Wagonlitz

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I think it is a positive thing that Paradox is still reviewing the game and making it clearer to understand (and not dumbing it down; as both the terrain stuff and supply/demand were never really in the player's influence anyway).
I will give you that there were some not fully known things with the terrain system, but much was known and there are other mechanics which aren't fully known; PUs are one of them---should they be removed to? The supply and demand was fully within the players influence.

This was removed for three reasons..

1) it had no impact that the player could effect.
So you are saying that there were parts of the system hidden from the game and the game files? Because otherwise you had full control over it and the player could certainly effect it. Lets just take grain since it is the first trade good in the files. So how would you not be able to influence the demand for grain? And when it comes to things like eastern resources you could very much influence their price; with the introduction of trade companies the conga line became feasible again and I have earned huge sums from controlling the trade of eastern resources. How is that not the player effecting the impact of the system?

Code:
grain = {
	base_price = 2	
	supply = 0.4
	max_demand = 5
	demand = {
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			has_building = armory
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			has_building = training_fields
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			has_building = barracks
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			has_building = regimental_camp
		}	
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			has_building = conscription_center
		}	
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.5
			trade_goods = fish
		}	
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.05
			owner = { has_idea_group = quantity_ideas }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			is_looted = yes
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.25
			owner = { is_at_war = yes }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			owner = { NOT = { stability = 1 } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			owner = { NOT = { stability = 2 } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.9
			owner = { NOT = { stability = 3 } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			owner = { stability = 1 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			owner = { stability = 2 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.1
			owner = { stability = 3 }
		}
	}
}
2) most did not even know about it..
And how is it the fault of the game that some people don't want to learn the mechanics? It is not like the values were hidden after all. You could find the things which impact a certain good by hovering over that good in the province window and you could also find detailed data about the supply and demand in the ledger; perhaps also details about what influences it, but I haven't really looked at that ledger page for a long time so I am not sure about that.
3) it was a severe performance drain..
Well that is a proper reason and I accept that. Especially if it came down to the very good, improved province layout or the supply demand system then I think you made the right choice. Hopefully when people get better hardware a better economics system can be implemented again instead of the dumbed down system that is replacing the supply demand one.

i never ever saw this system ingame. It isn't included in the tutorials (is trade even in any tutorial?)
And how is that the fault of the game instead of your fault? It was clearly visible several places in game besides being clearly visible in the game files.
Does it even affect the income of trade much if you step in this game of supply and demand?
Do you know another way you can earn thousands of ducats a month from the far east? By using the supply demand system right (and using trade companies to reinstate the conga line) you could; it of course isn't the record sums of the ridiculous trade earnings thread, but it still were really significant sums.

its good they replace the old system, i never really understood the old one
And how is that not your fault?
 

Wizzington

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Players could affect it but not in a meaningful way.
 

Me_

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Players could affect it but not in a meaningful way.
Does that mean that we will be able to influence the prices now or that the whole idea of influencing it has been abandoned?
 

Wagonlitz

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Players could affect it but not in a meaningful way.
How isn't it meaningful to build factories in far east provinces producing eastern resources, have that trade value conga lined back to Europe thanks to trade companies and then raking in a thousand ducats monthly income? You of course also need many customs houses.

And even not trying to optimize trade like in the above example it was possible to gain increases in trade income from the old system; how is that not meaningful?
 

AKronblad

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So many questions on details...

Guys, you're eager to know how AoW will work, and that's understandable. So am I.

Some people may even want to have the announced mechanics changed from now until release...

But.. Given that it's only 18 calendar days to go until release, we can safely assume most mechanics are already set in stone and what remains needs to be allocated to polishing and bug elimination.

So can we therefore give Johan, Wiz, and the Paradox folks some relief and time to work so that they can focus on getting a nice and working AoW released on October 30th, without having to be distracted by detailed questions? (We will get all answers then, be sure.)

Please.
 
Last edited:

birincikalite

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Players could affect it but not in a meaningful way.
So how will we be an effect on the new system ? Could you give us a clue ?

So many questions on details...

Guys, you're eager to know how AoW will work, and that's understandable. So am I.

Some people may even want to have the announced mechanics changed from now until release...

But.. Given that it's 18 calendar days to go until release, we can safely assume most mechanics are already set in stone and what remains is polishing and bug elimination.

So can we therefore give Johan, Wiz, and the Paradox folks some relief and time to work so that they can focus on getting a nice and working AoW released on October 30th? (We will get all answers then, be sure.)

Please.
IMO we should first see how things go on with the new system. If we still don't like it, THEN we can ask for it to be changed. It's too early to hate it without knowing what it actually is besides the given information on the dev diary.
 

Magean

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How isn't it meaningful to build factories in far east provinces producing eastern resources, have that trade value conga lined back to Europe thanks to trade companies and then raking in a thousand ducats monthly income? You of course also need many customs houses.

And even not trying to optimize trade like in the above example it was possible to gain increases in trade income from the old system; how is that not meaningful?

In your example, prices are only manipulated by building manufactories. For the rest of that example, it's only the player connecting trade nodes optimally. That part of the trade system has nothing to do with manipulating prices. You can still make ludicrous amounts of money through the same trade route even without bothering about prices.

The main grief I hold against the new system is that I fear prices will move a very jolted way. Taking the example of slaves, previously we would see demand increasing slowly as more provinces product cotton, sugar or tobacco. Now, we will see prices surging over one day. It sorta breaks immersion.

But of course, playing the game on a 8 years old rig, I'm very happy that performances were a major concern when planning that change. :D