Petition: Can we get a rework for functioning missile weapons?

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I am Sovereign

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Funny thing about that "good right" part.

We recently had someone starting a discussion literally with "I am a buying customer".
He had to be reminded that he bought a single computer game. He did NOT buy Stock in the Company to the point where he was a relevant shareholder.
And it was a single game that is working, by the way.*

If you start your argument with such a large helping of Entitlement, you can not expect to be taken very seriously. In fact people will propably argue agaisnt you to make clear that they are not like you.


*As the modding ability costs massive amounts of time and resources on the Developers side, the "time played with mods" counts here too. Without the game, there would be no mods in the first place.

If he is a buying customer he has the right to express his opinion and his concerns. I dont see using that right as presumptuous.
Ofc the company does not has the obligation that they have to listen to him/her.
 
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Cordane

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He had to be reminded that he bought a single computer game. He did NOT buy Stock in the Company to the point where he was a relevant shareholder.
You do know that a person only has to own one share of common stock in order to be able to speak at a shareholders meeting, right? Within the context of the customer/business relationship, that really is pretty equivalent. But that really shouldn't require that he remind folks here, both player and developer/moderator, of that fact, though.
 
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The Founder

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If he is a buying customer he has the right to express his opinion and his concerns. I dont see using that right as presumptuous.
Ofc the company does not has the obligation that they have to listen to him/her.
I am a buying customer too. Linking my Steam Account shows that, btw.
Oddly I never felt any need to point that out. I just did it now to showcase how ridicoulous pointing that out realy is.

So why does one call his post a "Petition" (rather then just a thread like every other). Why does someone literally start with "I am a buying customer"?
Simple: To make it appear his opinion/position is more relevant then the one of everyone else that posted on this Forum. Inlcuding the ones of people that posted on this very topic before.
That is not going to help any cause. Indeed all it realy does is piss people off and they can not even specify for themself why exactly.
 
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Azmodael

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I've been patiently waiting for a missile rework for 7 months. When the big weapon rework came with 1.3 I realised two things - Missiles were ignored yet again and no major weapon overhaul will happen in the next patches. Honestly, fixing missiles is not that hard. It just requires someone to sit down, analyze the current problems and change the core mechanics in order to fix the underlying issue, which created the problem in the first place.

Honestly, if you are only ever playing against the AI missiles kind of work. The AI will only make a limited number of PD, so if you stack enough of them you'll win. If it doesn't bother you that you would have won easier and sooner using other weapon types - well then missiles are fine for you -> feel free to ignore this thread.
 
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Pavane

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I've been patiently waiting for a missile rework for 7 months. When the big weapon rework came with 1.3 I realised two things - Missiles were ignored yet again and no major weapon overhaul will happen in the next patches. Honestly, fixing missiles is not that hard. It just requires someone to sit down, analyze the current problems and change the core mechanics in order to fix the underlying issue, which created the problem in the first place.

Honestly, if you are only ever playing against the AI missiles kind of work. The AI will only make a limited number of PD, so if you stack enough of them you'll win. If it doesn't bother you that you would have won easier and sooner using other weapon types - well then missiles are fine for you -> feel free to ignore this thread.
Hey, if it bothers you so much that missiles are more challenging to play -> feel free to create petitions demanding the game be changed. You needn't be so dismissive of players who do not share your opinion.
 
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Alblaka

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My suggestions to 'fix' missiles:
  • Make all missiles have 100% shield penetration.
  • Reduce PD effectiveness (either on the PD side, or increase missile health)
  • Increase Missile Speed by ~150%ish
  • Significantly increase Missile Range
With these changes, Missiles can even stay at their current 'low damage' and can continue suffering from overkill.
Currently the strongest defense mechanism are shields, and making missiles per default ignore them, will make them more relevant and force the enemy to adapt with PDs. Giving them the additional edge on range means they will be great for long-range and hit'n'Run engagements, but become weaker once the enemy closed into range, making combat speed an actually relevant stat (and positioning!).

Not sure how well this suggestion would work, but I think it's reasonable on paper.
 
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RgZera

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Every time I post the results of a victory where I have used the naysayer's "broken" technology I get a few "yes but" replies: Yes you won, but....

I don't understand the obsession with balancing weapons, FTL drives, traits, ethics, etc. because I design empires around themes without any consideration to min-maxing. Some weapons are better than others, as is the case with other components of the game. A competent player can find ways to mitigate any of the extra challenges that a thematic, sub-optimal empire design creates. The game is more complex than the relationship between two or three asymmetrical weapon types and there are no single choices that guarantees a lost game.

I agree entirely. I never saw stellaris as a competitive game and my multiplayer is restricted to friends. Thats why i "borrowed" all the files from my favourite mods. Even though i never did anything with modding (except for star drive where its more like simple xml editing) after reading through all the files in each mod i could rewrite them and adjust and add my own ideas. Now i have my stargate universe with my amazing ancient tall empire going up against insane AI with 10 times my fleet size and 6 times my core systems each. Its pretty equal so far BUT MY POINT IS

Missiles cannot be balanced in their current form PERIOD. I tried making my ancient drones balanced or mildly OP. Cant happen. Unless i give them 3 times the dps per slot or every single fight happens at brawling distance, instant weapons win every single time.

I tried increasing projectile speed and adjusting fire rate. I gave them 200 % evasion and 100% shield pen. Everything works fine as long as i warp in on top of the enemy fleet BUT at the moment where the fight begins at long range asgard beams fuck up the ancients. Even with ancient drones given shield damage role and spreading out damage. Because spreading out damage means not wasting damage on overkill BUT instant weapons pick them off 1 by 1 whereas drones keep wearing them down instead and not really killing anything. Equal mineral cost, equal military power or equal dps all result in utter destruction of the ancients with most of the asgard surviving.

The only option i have is to make missiles instant ... LOL I mean its not as terrible to watch drones fly completely straight especially since i gave them higher speed BUT it was so satisfying watching them chase down corvettes with low missile speeds.... I guess we cant have everything. So i left it missile and fuck it made my ancient control chair buff missile damage and fire rate to a point where they are just too OP as in the series. Since its only for me and friends i disable them whenever i want it takes one of these : # and thats it.

I hope i got my point across to you. If people can mod anything into the game but are still unable to balance it with all those tools at hand maybe the system is just bad. Something that depends sooooo much on circumstances ranging from useless to hyper op EVEN without the effect op PD (due to high evasion) is probably not working well. (imagine my drones dont even explode mid way to the target, they simply stop flying... my bad since i dont know how to make the coding good but its disgusting to see...whereas a retargeting system would make it look like a continous stream of yellow drones flooding over the enemy fleet. If they added piercing attacks where projectiles can go through things and retarget after each hit up to a given number of attacks it would look 100% like real stargate series drones <3)

Missiles locking onto new targets is the only solution to make them more reliable EXACTLY for the reason YOU mentioned. So we can all roleplay whatever we want.
 
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The 14Deadsouls

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I guess a short term fix would be something like:

1) Negate evasion of Swarmer Missles but increase their health (so they tank PD).
2) Increase all Missle movement speed.

Thereby, missles can make better use of their superior range and can reduce the effectiveness of PD counters. Not a fix by any means, but a small buff that wouldn't break anything.

For swarmer missles you could also consider reducing their damage a bit to compensate, so players don't just spam them as an 'answer' to PD and they fulfill their role as 'decoy' missles better.
 

Azmodael

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Let me give you an illustrative example of how horrible missiles are, because some people apparently think this is a minor imbalance.

Attacking fleet 124 cap -> Shields T1, Reactor T2, Missiles T2, Torpedos T1, Advanced Computers, T1 Sensors
Level 3 general with Firerate and Range traits

5 Cruisers -> 3T + 6S
17 Destroyers -> 2M+2S
35 Corvettes -> 1S+1T
35 Corvettes -> 3S

Defending fleet 89 cap -> Shields T1, Reactor T2, Lasers T1
+1 Spaceport
Level 1 general without any useful trait

79 corvettes -> 3S
5 Destroyers -> 2M+2S

Result: Missiles.png

Now same fight with missiles replaced by T1 Kinetics. None of the T slots got replaced.
Result: Kinetics.png

It is so sad it's not even funny. And that is without any PD for the defender.

Click on tumbnail to get bigger picture...
 
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Some of the problems missiles face have simple solutions such as overkill and flight speed, however to balance with the other branches of weapons tech I still think missiles will need something else.

I'd propose making them like real world artillery, torpedoes with armour piercing(AP) for hard targets, and high explosive(HE) missiles for soft ones. This may be difficult to implement in the game code, but if its possible to add splash damage I think it would go a long way to making explosives a unique option among weapons tech. This could also open up an option for an XL slot massive HE missile.

Change all missiles to have the same prioritization by PD so whirlwind missiles fulfill their role as distractions. Give energy torpedoes splash versus nearby shields as well.
 
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The 14Deadsouls

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Let me give you an illustrative example of how horrible missiles are, because some people apparently think this is a minor imbalance.

Attacking fleet 124 cap -> Shields T1, Reactor T2, Missiles T2, Torpedos T1, Advanced Computers, T1 Sensors
Level 3 general with Firerate and Range traits

5 Cruisers -> 3T + 6S
17 Destroyers -> 2M+2S
35 Corvettes -> 1S+1T
35 Corvettes -> 3S

Defending fleet 89 cap -> Shields T1, Reactor T2, Lasers T1
+1 Spaceport
Level 1 general without any useful trait

79 corvettes -> 3S
5 Destroyers -> 2M+2S

Result: View attachment 225580

Now same fight with missiles replaced by T1 Kinetics. None of the T slots got replaced.
Result: View attachment 225581

It is so sad it's not even funny. And that is without any PD for the defender.

Click on tumbnail to get bigger picture...

Wow, I didn't realise they were THAT bad. I thought running 40 missile destoryers would be worthwhile to clear away corvettes but... Time to scrap all missles entierly I guess :D
 
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I think it is important to ask: "How is a well-balanced weapons system going to lead to more interesting gameplay decisions?" In my opinion, the answer is "not much".

There are three possible results from a missile rework:

-Missiles remain inferior to the other weapons. Everybody keeps using the other two weapons systems.
-Missiles become superior to the other weapon systems. Everybody uses missiles.
-Missiles become equal to the other weapons systems. It no longer matters which weapons system you pick, the choice becomes purely based on whether you like "whoosh-boom" more then "dakka dakka" or "zapzap".

None of these outcomes lead to meaningful choices and interesting gameplay. Perfectly balanced weapons are not interesting weapons. I think there are other possibilities that will lead to more engaging gameplay regarding weapons:

-Each weapons system has its own defined role, which is based on play style. For example, missiles could be made cheaper, while PD is made more expensive. This would make missiles a good early game rush weapon that falls off at a later stage. Energy weapons, on the other hand could be expensive but powerful, which makes them a poor choice for the early game but a strong option for the late game, for those empires that want to turtle a first and then later steamroll all the missile plebs with their superior weapons.

-The information on which empire uses which weapons and defenses, and an AI that acts on this information, for example by being more likely to attack an empire that has weapons it can easily counter. This way, the relative power between empires is not just determined by fleet strength and tech level, but also by how well their tech counters yours. This leads to interesting gameplay because you will have to take this into account when you select allies and enemies. How cool would it be if an empire asks you for an alliance, not because they like you but because "our archenemy uses missiles, and you have point defense, and we don't." This could be combined with a more restricted tech system, where it is harder to have a counter to everything and picking your battles wisely becomes more important.

I think that strategic combat is never going to be a strong point of this game. The strong point of Stellaris is the ability to create your own species, and play out their story among other species in the universe. Having a balanced weapons system is not going to improve that experience. Tuning the weapons to match different play styles, or having different weapon technologies have various implications on diplomacy and relations between empires, will improve upon the strong points of Stellaris, and will help to make it a unique game in its genre.
 
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Cordane

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I disagree with the idea that having three balanced - not functionally identical - is somehow boring. What would be boring is knowing for certain that you have to take Missiles early on, because they do best during the early rush, and then you have to take Kinetics, because they're suited to the middle part, and lastly you have to take Energy, because they're not worth it beforehand but rock during the late game - The One True Path, apparently. Each weapon type should be able to stand on its own, whether you sprint for the late game techs along that line, or match it up with one or both of the other types for synergies.
 
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Pavane

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There are three possible results from a missile rework:

-Missiles remain inferior to the other weapons. Everybody keeps using the other two weapons systems.
-Missiles become superior to the other weapon systems. Everybody uses missiles.
-Missiles become equal to the other weapons systems. It no longer matters which weapons system you pick, the choice becomes purely based on whether you like "whoosh-boom" more then "dakka dakka" or "zapzap".

None of these outcomes lead to meaningful choices and interesting gameplay. Perfectly balanced weapons are not interesting weapons.

You are quite right in your assessment. I'm sure that Paradox realizes that some of the requests for "balance" are just busywork that will not improve the game; just please the min-maxers who will promptly petition for a fix for the next technology that they consider "broken".
 
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I do genuinely want input. Specific, detailed, input.
@folk+ :
tl;dr: Give missiles a more unique role as an extreme-range first-strike weapon.

I always imagined missiles as an extreme-range first strike weapon.
In this role I feel that missiles would shine given that they can be hard-countered by more than shields and armor (namely PD). They would effectively not be as effective (DPS wise) as other weapons (especially if the enemy counters with PD), but that is the tradeoff you pay for being able to soften up your opponent before the dakka starts flying.
(A missile heavy fleet would also perform poorly against being jumped in on, or being caught by ftl traps. An added tactical consideration.)

By extreme range I mean ranges in excess of 200, with sufficient speed to make that matter.

I have played around with the idea a bit before. And it appeared to work well. But no clean tests were done per say.
Specifically I have played with making torpedos extreme range, high speed, high damage but very slow firing weapons.

Sidenote: The role of XL weapons would remain as is, basically being shorter range first-strike weapons, but which cannot be hard countered by something like PD.
 
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My understanding is the major portion of Missile overkill is because of flight time, where the targeting by other weapons (or even the initial salvoes' batteries) has earlier salvoes not being included in the expected damage equation, therefore weapons may fire (again) on a target that is already dead and just doesn't know it. Is there also an issue where simultaneous Missile launches, in a target-rich environment, overkill a ship or is that more a factor of a ripple-launch causing the earlier example to play out at high-speed?

The one thing about most of these changes is that they all need to happen together, as a targeted ship that has salvoes queued up to hit it, and therefore wouldn't get overkilled by faster weapons if just the overkill changes go through, still has time to get off more shots of its own before finally dying, if the Missile speed improvements aren't also made.
 

folk+

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@folk+ :
tl;dr: Give missiles a more unique role as an extreme-range first-strike weapon.
Thank you, but if you take a look at my addon the concerns you voice about missiles are already fixed in it.

I might increase the range of them a bit (I've lowered tier 1 and 2 missile range), and decrease the firing rate based on your comments, but other than that my addon removes all PD and removes Missiles as a starting tech, gives all ship types missile slots in all configurations, and unlocks missiles level 1 for everyone. So the concept of a "missile fleet" doesn't exist when you use my addon. Neither does the PD problem, because PD has been removed completely.