Petition against Trirems , trirems everywhere !

[Cephei80]

So i loved the last dev diary but i was disappointed by how all ships are represented under 1 class .

Here is why i think we might have an issue similar to the naked corvette issue of stellaris .

-i will start with an example : in eu4 as a greece sized byzantium i build 40 heavy ships + medium ones to beat those like +200 galleys of the ottomans or Venice on mid game , because i know they have quantity , a quantity that i can't beat with greece alone , so i go for quality and fire power (not doctrine but quality of ships i build.)

In imperator if i am Macedon and have only a 200 basic ship max but egypte have 400 or 800 trirems i will have no chance at all because they also use the same type of my ships + they are larger and have tons of ports .
If i am an italy sized rome and want to face carthage i will have no chance , because they have tons of ports too and can make tons of basic ships and already have a great naval doctrine , what can rome do against that ? Especially that the best what rome can do is making similar ships but in lower numbers .
We will need quality ships to beat their quantity and skills . We need to make good deck formation with heavy medium and light ships so we can beat our enemies.


Please @Johan make more ships so we can focus on different strategies and so we can also feel confident against a fleet larger but lighter than ours .
I won't dare to face egypte with Macedonia or carthage with rome if we both have same ships but inferior in number and ports and size and naval skill .
With 1 ships type only the one with most ports and ships will always win and our only hope will be to micromanage fleets and go hunt those smaller detachments only and hope that no other enemy reinforcement will arrive .

 

[Iaminfantry]

yeah im with you 1 type of ship kinda blows but as long as they promise to add it at some point im fine with it as is.

Edit: okay then crybabies just bitch and moan until they fix it then

 

[Austregisel]

Very disappointing the naval battles, being that at that time there were so many epic battles, and the naval tactics are weak, if each of the two sides choose different, there will be no bonus or penalty, and by the way the admiral will not make much difference . And serious, it's just a type of galleys ????? NO WAY

 

[Prometheus_1]

So i loved the last dev diary but i was disappointed by how all ships are represented under 1 class .

Here is why i think we might have an issue similar to the naked corvette issue of stellaris .

-i will start with an example : in eu4 as a greece sized byzantium i build 40 heavy ships + medium ones to beat those like +200 galleys of the ottomans or Venice on mid game , because i know they have quantity , a quantity that i can't beat with greece alone , so i go for quality and fire power (not doctrine but quality of ships i build.)

In imperator if i am Macedon and have only a 200 basic ship max but egypte have 400 or 800 trirems i will have no chance at all because they also use the same type of my ships + they are larger and have tons of ports .
If i am an italy sized rome and want to face carthage i will have no chance , because they have tons of ports too and can make tons of basic ships and already have a great naval doctrine , what can rome do against that ? Especially that the best what rome can do is making similar ships but in lower numbers .
We will need quality ships to beat their quantity and skills . We need to make good deck formation with heavy medium and light ships so we can beat our enemies.


Please @Johan make more ships so we can focus on different strategies and so we can also feel confident against a fleet larger but lighter than ours .
I won't dare to face egypte with Macedonia or carthage with rome if we both have same ships but inferior in number and ports and size and naval skill .
With 1 ships type only the one with most ports and ships will always win and our only hope will be to micromanage fleets and go hunt those smaller detachments only and hope that no other enemy reinforcement will arrive .

But then what will be in the naval Dlc?

 

[Cephei80]

But then what will be in the naval Dlc?

we might get a real mare nostrum dlc this time .
a dlc that can give to barbarians of the northern sea their ships that used to be bigger ships than mediteranean ones or their commerce ability with the island of britain or the commerce with baltic tribes etc , there is also the illyrians and rhodians and cretan and aetolian raiders who used to pillage villages etc . so far and from what i have seen its still blank here but they still can make cool dlc that add many naval and raiding mechanics .

 

[monstermash]

if I am transporting my units with the ship type can the extra men I have on board fight or will they just stand by and watch as the boat sinks beneath there feet.





roman soilder on boat

they encounter 5 carthigian ships

roman troops on boat
roman troops should we help in the sea battle NOPE
boat sinks because they didn't help in battle

 

[monstermash]

we might get a real mare nostrum dlc this time .
a dlc that can give to barbarians of the northern sea their ships that used to be bigger ships than mediteranean ones or their commerce ability with the island of britain or the commerce with baltic tribes etc , there is also the illyrians and rhodians and cretan and aetolian raiders who used to pillage villages etc . so far and from what i have seen its still blank here but they still can make cool dlc that add many naval and raiding mechanics .

I hope that if im in a big war and one of my enemies allies is far away I wont just be able to go over there and continually raid them and steal there entire countries pops because I have no AE in the region

 

[Cephei80]

Very disappointing the naval battles, being that at that time there were so many epic battles, and the naval tactics are weak, if each of the two sides choose different, there will be no bonus or penalty, and by the way the admiral will not make much difference . And serious, it's just a type of galleys ????? NO WAY

indeed .
actium for exemple was heavy ships vs light ships mainly . we cant do our own actium against a much numerous enemy by just having same type of ships but in lower numbers we need at least a heavy ships class .

 

[Chipmunk216]

I'd be very, very surprised if Paradox didn't flesh out the naval system in the near-to-mid future. In the meantime, I'm ok with simplified naval combat if it means they get this puppy out sooner!

 

[Prometheus_1]

we might get a real mare nostrum dlc this time .
a dlc that can give to barbarians of the northern sea their ships that used to be bigger ships than mediteranean ones or their commerce ability with the island of britain or the commerce with baltic tribes etc , there is also the illyrians and rhodians and cretan and aetolian raiders who used to pillage villages etc . so far and from what i have seen its still blank here but they still can make cool dlc that add many naval and raiding mechanics .

Too bad that this stuff is cut out of the game to make later on paid dlcs.

 

[Thure]

Too bad that this stuff is cut out of the game to make later on paid dlcs.

Not in the base game don't mean it's cutted content to sell later. Devs only have a limited development time and can make a game full of features if they want to keep the release profitable.

 

[Denkt]

indeed .
actium for exemple was heavy ships vs light ships mainly . we cant do our own actium against a much numerous enemy by just having same type of ships but in lower numbers we need at least a heavy ships class .

But why should big ships be a win button against a nation that have invested more into navy than you and what is actually stoping them from also simply go big ships? As far as I can see, the arguments given here don't actually say anything interesting about adding more ships.

 

[Vonboe]

But why should big ships be a win button against a nation that have invested more into navy than you and what is actually stoping them from also simply go big ships? As far as I can see, the arguments given here don't actually say anything interesting about adding more ships.

Isn't the whole idea of having multiple ship types the same as to why there is more than one kind of land unit?

 

[Denkt]

Isn't the whole idea of having multiple ship types the same as to why there is more than one kind of land unit?

The idea may be the same but there are difference. First of land and naval warfare in the game don't work the same way. Secondly the resources that unlock the different unit types and boost them are very varied, could the same be done to naval units? Thirdly EU4 could support 4 ship types because they have distinct purposes. Big ships and galleys specialize in combat but in different seas which wont work in Imperator: Rome because of the lack of high seas. Light ships that protect trade wont work in Imperator because trade works differently and transport is not needed because warships also act as transports in Imperator: Rome.

 

[Vonboe]

The idea may be the same but there are difference. First of land and naval warfare in the game don't work the same way. Secondly the resources that unlock the different unit types and boost them are very varied, could the same be done to naval units? Thirdly EU4 could support 4 ship types because they have distinct purposes. Big ships and galleys specialize in combat but in different seas which wont work in Imperator: Rome because of the lack of high seas. Light ships that protect trade wont work in Imperator because trade works differently and transport is not needed because warships also act as transports in Imperator: Rome.

First of land and naval warfare in the game don't work the same way*
For me the whole idea behind multiple unit items is to make the game more strategical, light infantry counters x, heavy infantry counters y, cavalry counters z etc.
So in that sense naval warfare could be the same as land.

Secondly the resources that unlock the different unit types and boost them are very varied*
Of course you could do the same for naval units. Wood gives + xx% durability, iron unlocks heavy ships, etc.

Thirdly EU4 could support 4 ship types because they have distinct purposes. Big ships and galleys specialize in combat but in different seas which wont work in Imperator: Rome because of the lack of high seas.*
This kind of goes back to point 1. But for example you could also have ships which where faster and better for transportation but low on armor, bigger slower ships but good for regular fighting, etc.

 

[Nyrael]

Too bad that this stuff is cut out of the game to make later on paid dlcs.

Sometime in 2008 in PDS Office:
"Hey Johan, shall we add these Ship Types?"
"No, just put in Tiremes. We shall sell the other ones 11+ years later as DLC."

(in translation: unless they plan really long-term, the content was not cut for the sake of DLCs. The first game didn't have anything but Tiremes either)

 

[Will Steel]

Agreed. The Hellenistic period was the last era to see major naval action on an empire-wide scale before early modern era. This could've been so much better.

Even if they release a DLC to fix this later, it will leave a bad taste for everyone. Naval warfare was fundamental to this age for many states. There are at least 10-15 different types of ships that could be in the game and still work.

So why leave all that out? Why the laziness? Just because EU-Rome had just one ship type (and it was a game that got abandoned), why do the same injustice to such an excellent potential like Imperator Rome?

 

[Nyrael]

(and it was a game that got abandoned)

Not sure where you are getting this. At the time, PDS games got either one or two expansions, and PDS confirmed that Rome did well.

As for why it was not focused on more for I:R 1.0, the answer is simple: they chose to focus on something else. If better Naval System got it, something else would have to be removed to compensate.

 

[Will Steel]

Not sure where you are getting this. At the time, PDS games got either one or two expansions, and PDS confirmed that Rome did well.

We did not see an expansion after Vae Victis despite so much potential, and I think the patches stopped a short while afterwards. It got abandoned in the same vein as Sengoku.

 

[Nyrael]

We did not see an expansion after Vae Victis despite so much potential, and I think the patches stopped a short while afterwards. It got abandoned in the same vein as Sengoku.

I repeat: at the time, it was common for PDS games to get very few expansions. EU and HoI were the big games so they got two, while CK, Vicky, and EU:R got one. Later they would start changing their DLC policy so EU3 rose to 4 expansions, and then with CK2 they introduced the new DLC Model. It's hard to imagine today, but back then their games were not maintained for over half a decade.

Additionally, EU:R was actually a candidate to get the second expansion. Johan started a poll to let the players decide which of their games would get a new expansion. EU:R did well in the poll (it placed second as I remember), but beating EU3, the back-then most popular PDS game, was not something that doable.
Overall, it was not even close to Sengoku and MotE, who were flops of epic proportions.