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Jarkko Suvinen said:
Not to dwell too much with this, since it is now becoming a non-issue, but:
The realities of MP games and SP games are quite different. Let us be real here, if the KING signes peace with some Pagan/Muslim enemy, that naturally should count for all his underlings, since they are under the "umbrella" of their lieges crusade. If they want to extend their crusade beyond their lieges wishes, they bloody well have to do so sepperatly.
For a player to jump around and check that all his vassals are satisfied, or god forbid, caught in some endless siege in a nameless province half a world away; well, it just turns the whole hierarchy on it's head. I mean, the vassals dictating when the KING should declare peace? That is just absurd.
Sure. But like I said, when that is implemented there will be much foul words used. Or do you think the peace-system will be only in effect when the player is the liege? When the player is the vassal, your suggestion will screw many plans, both in SP and MP.Galleblære said:
But rest assured, I will be there mentioning *you* wanted this change when the foul words start flying
Jarkko Suvinen said:Sure. But like I said, when that is implemented there will be much foul words used. Or do you think the peace-system will be only in effect when the player is the liege? When the player is the vassal, your suggestion will screw many plans, both in SP and MP.
But rest assured, I will be there mentioning *you* wanted this change when the foul words start flying
Well players whining because their liege makes peace have no leg to stand on. If they don't want that to happen they should pick a title without a liege.
Jarkko Suvinen said:Sure. But like I said, when that is implemented there will be much foul words used. Or do you think the peace-system will be only in effect when the player is the liege? When the player is the vassal, your suggestion will screw many plans, both in SP and MP.
But rest assured, I will be there mentioning *you* wanted this change when the foul words start flying
It is nothing new there pops, we've lived with that since the early days of EU1! What you want is like opening a can of worms every time you go to war. And surely, historically, this wasn't the case the majority of the time!
Galleblære said:
Exactly, Europa Universalis has had this "other people deciding to make people for you"-thing since the beginning. It's annoying sometimes, but it's the right system. As will this adjustment in 1.05 be.
Well, just to make sure, in EU2 (sorry, I don't have EU1) the player is always the leader of the alliance in SP (not necessarily in MP). Which is not what you are asking for here (the liege always make peace). I do not argue it is necessarily ahistorical (altough there are cases that show that, though usually the liege made peace for all of his realm), but would like people to know what they are demanding
Jarkko Suvinen said:Well, just to make sure, in EU2 (sorry, I don't have EU1) the player is always the leader of the alliance in SP (not necessarily in MP). Which is not what you are asking for here (the liege always make peace). I do not argue it is necessarily ahistorical (altough there are cases that show that, though usually the liege made peace for all of his realm), but would like people to know what they are demanding
Uhm, the leader can just as easily be INVITED to an alliance in EU2, which makes an AI country the alliance leader. But all of that is moot, as the STARTER of the war in EU2 is effectivly it's controller. So the guy that starts the war has the power to end it; for all. In EU2 it is a blessing and a curse. A disloyal alliance member might sue for a seperate early peace by throwing in some ducats etc. Ironically enough the "problem" in CK was that the AI vassals didn't know when to ease off, which led to "babysitting" by the player.
With the new system, that will hopefully be avoided, and as I said earlier, with improved AI I am sure vassals will go to war on their own when they see their chance, and backstab their king when he looks the other way!
Jarkko Suvinen dude i'm not sure what your problem is but your attitude is a bit harsh now isn't it
here is a solution for you: when 1.05 comes out, just keep on rollin on 1.04 ok
here is a solution for you: when 1.05 comes out, just keep on rollin on 1.04 ok
Johan said:
Ah, interesting...this will lead to vassals being much more docile...and since it seems it will be an absolute condition (no exception to the above, I gather), they might appear as a bit too obedient, so there is a (slight) downside to this.
But overall, it will in all likelihood be quite an improvement compared to the current situation (at least compared to 1.03, can't speak for 1.04 yet).
Grosshaus said:
Hmmm...that would make for an excellent exception (oh wait, that sort of rhymes, doesn't it), say those with 25 or lower loyalty?
Now, I know paradox and Johan are in a hard situation when it comes to these changes, but I have to agree that generaly this is not a good idea, since as counts and dukes the things you can do are already very limited and if you can't move in after your liege has cleared the way and grab some goodies, it will be even more limited, and I also think a bit ahistorical, as far as i know duchies and counts did wage war by themselves.
The first thing that comes to my mind is the option to ask a vassal to make peace with his enemy (Then the enemy has to accept as well, but the vassal's liege's achievements against that enemy should be taken into consideration, thus if you have just kicked his butt, he will accept, but if the enemy is just fighting with your vassal, he won't always), and wether he does or does not should be decided by his loyalty.
The same should happen to you, whenever your liege signs peace there is a chance that he would ask you to do so as well.
Now, here comes a question, is there any negative effect for low loyalty? I mean if my loyalty is low towards my liege, is there anything bad coming from that? Does he consider not protecting me for example if I get attacked, or something (this would be an idea)?
If so, then saying no would mean a severe hit to loyalty, but if not, even then it should be punished somehow.
The simpler solution is the already mentioned low loyalty vassals don't sign peace when you do, and you automaticaly sign peace if you have a high loyalty.
EU2 is different, there you agree to those rules by choice when you join an alliance, and you can get out, or you can form your own alliance, and be the leader there.
The first thing that comes to my mind is the option to ask a vassal to make peace with his enemy (Then the enemy has to accept as well, but the vassal's liege's achievements against that enemy should be taken into consideration, thus if you have just kicked his butt, he will accept, but if the enemy is just fighting with your vassal, he won't always), and wether he does or does not should be decided by his loyalty.
The same should happen to you, whenever your liege signs peace there is a chance that he would ask you to do so as well.
Now, here comes a question, is there any negative effect for low loyalty? I mean if my loyalty is low towards my liege, is there anything bad coming from that? Does he consider not protecting me for example if I get attacked, or something (this would be an idea)?
If so, then saying no would mean a severe hit to loyalty, but if not, even then it should be punished somehow.
The simpler solution is the already mentioned low loyalty vassals don't sign peace when you do, and you automaticaly sign peace if you have a high loyalty.
EU2 is different, there you agree to those rules by choice when you join an alliance, and you can get out, or you can form your own alliance, and be the leader there.
Erufailon said:
I compare this opinion to those who wanted to play Romania or Switzerland in HOI and do the very same things Germany could do. If there isn't some distinction between liege and vassal, then what exactly is the point of playing a vassal?
When a count is simply a King in disguise, then IMHO it cuts down on the game's choices and makes each different strata generic.
There are plenty of independents for those who don't want a liege.
Neither of my suggestions raised counts to the same level as kings. Both options would make it harder for them to wage war on their own. If low loyalty would cause the liege to not help them would make it even harder. But even if I would have suggested something which would have raised the possibilities for them, IMHO they would still be way below their lieges.
Now, I'm thinking of this, and actually I think what this game lacks is internal affairs, like one duchy attacking another to take land, to lighten taxes, and stuff, instead of attacking other countries, which was not common.
Also, conspiracy against the liege is missing biiig time.
Now, I'm thinking of this, and actually I think what this game lacks is internal affairs, like one duchy attacking another to take land, to lighten taxes, and stuff, instead of attacking other countries, which was not common.
Also, conspiracy against the liege is missing biiig time.
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Because why, if I'm a duke or count, should I beforced into peace if my leige decides he's had enough but i'm kicking ass? If it were an option, ie "Do you want to automatically sign white peace, y/n?" kind of deal that would be fine.Galleblære said:
But this era isn't EU2 era. A king couldn't force his vassals to stop a war without severe reprocusions.
let me try a legalistic approach
liege gives land to vassal in return for loyalty, cash and obedience
therefore, liege is the vassals superior and has the legal ground to enforce laws and treaties upon vassal
liege signs peace in the name of kingdom, therefore his word is binding for his vassals
if the vassals have issues and balls to challenge the authority of the liege they are free to do so. of course, if they don't mind the chance of being impaled if they fail.
what kind of shitty king lets his vassals do whatever they want in spite of his word and will. it is a matter of self-esteem to rip out their intestines merely to let others know who the boss is.
if one can disobey the king by waging war even if the king made peace, what legitimate reason do others have to pay taxes or take any order from the king?
royal authority must be respected if it can be enforced.
liege gives land to vassal in return for loyalty, cash and obedience
therefore, liege is the vassals superior and has the legal ground to enforce laws and treaties upon vassal
liege signs peace in the name of kingdom, therefore his word is binding for his vassals
if the vassals have issues and balls to challenge the authority of the liege they are free to do so. of course, if they don't mind the chance of being impaled if they fail.
what kind of shitty king lets his vassals do whatever they want in spite of his word and will. it is a matter of self-esteem to rip out their intestines merely to let others know who the boss is.
if one can disobey the king by waging war even if the king made peace, what legitimate reason do others have to pay taxes or take any order from the king?
royal authority must be respected if it can be enforced.
Well there you got it wrong altoghter...the king gives up the land in exchange for not needing to maintain the area or army, etc. In exchange the vassal gives loyalty, obedience and often cash payments to help his lord. This is important because its from a bottom up power structure that the fedual society began and kings later had to fight against to make their realms more centralized.Brownbeard said:
weak kings had to do so. and as i said, if you are a strong duke, be ready to challenge your king. if he's weak, you'll win, if he's strong you'll lose.
feudal structure is like a pack of wolves
feudal structure is like a pack of wolves
I was thinking of a "Do you want to sign peace?" option for vassals when their liege makes peace. Then ai would almost always choose to while humas wouldn't.
tombom said:
yes thats what I was think too - the best way out of the situation..
F