For examples 1, 2 and 3, we are actually saying the vassals are stupid, not the enemy. The enemy can merrily annex vassals if they won't make peace with him.
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Or it could also be the "I've played the game more than you, so I know how to avoid idiocy. If you don't want to understand, then there are not enough nice words to make you understand." -reaction.Galleblære said:
Sigh.
In addition to that, I have never seen a vassal DOW if its troops were already mobilised by its liege. I'd sure like to see some sort of proof before I believe that one!
As to what use has a vassal DOW with an army of 150 men? Well, in case you didn't know, vassal counts (or dukes, altough I doubt any duke has just 15+ men) "steal" the siege when outranking the sieging courtier-general. Don't tell me you've never stolen a siege during the last few days as a count/duke when your lieges marshall has been sieging the fort for ages?
Now, please tell me why the vassals are stupid in those examples? They are joining a winning war (not in example 1 of course, but that is the one example where nobody honestly can say the player is playing smart?). Joining a winning war, but a fact that the player can change for them....tombom said:
Let us make a fourth example then.
Example 4. Pagan AI A DOW AI Kingdom B. Player C is a vassal of King B. Player C sees his liege winning the war, and decide to join the war. Moments later King B is perfectly happily mking peace for 1800d after taking 4 provinces. Player C now has to stop the revenging AI A from stampeding through the lands. According to the posts here Player C is stupid for not making peace with A (even though A probably don't accept any offers).
Brownbeard said:
Not to contradict you on the gameplay issue (which I'm too new to have seen in action yet), but in fact the above is a common dynamic of real-world imperial expansion. The neighbours annoy you, so you annex them, then the next neighbours out foment resistance in your new conquest, so you take them over too, and the remnants flee further afield, so you have to go after them, and so on until you reach an ocean or your empire collapses under you. Or you can make a cordon sanitaire of client states, but that doesn't really work, because then either you need to go to help them or they'll find another patron.
Jarkko Suvinen said:
Well, since your intellectial capacity is obviously on a nigh omnipotent level, this might be hard for me to grasp; but is your solution this:
Stay in war untill all your vassals make peace?
- Dec 14, 1999
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There is something about this that tells me people will be complaining about this feature...
But I won't be. Sounds great!
But I won't be. Sounds great
!
Johan said:
That's beyond great! Now I don't have to figure out cheesy workarounds to save them
.
tombom said:There is something about this that tells me people will be complaining about this feature...
But I won't be. Sounds great
I don't see why. The way I think about it, Liege X calls upon his vassals to wage war against some dude. When Liege X then makes peace the war is over, simple.
The AI, once further tweaked and perhaps new events are added, should give room for more rebellious counts and dukes who enter war on own initiative and so on.
tombom said:There is something about this that tells me people will be complaining about this feature...
But I won't be. Sounds great
I don't like it, but I'm not a whiner. I've stated my opinion on the matter repetedly, but I also recognize that my opinion is in the minority.
I think for now this is a good decission. Idealy though disloyal vassals may fight on and ignore their masters orders as with the HYW.
I don't like it either Pat. And I doubt very much we are the minority... It is just human nature that those who feel stongly against something are much louder than those who are satisfied with how things are.Patrucio said:
Now one thing is sure however, when 1.05 comes out, one element currently available in MP is not there anymore then
EDIT: Oh yes, forgot this one. With 1.05 it will take about 4.3 seconds before the first whiners start to scream "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! MY LIEGE MADE WP AND NOW I AM IN PEACE WHEN I WAS ABOUT TO TAKE BAGHDAD! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" You can be sure I will be there then. Paradox is a true customer service: You get what you order...
What element is that? I dont see the logic in kingdoms not being able to peace all round. True in MP you can tell your enemy to peace your vassals first i guess.
Galleblære said:
I am not omnipotent. According to the MP games I've played in, Pat or Byakhiam are the omnipotent ones. I just try to ape after them.Stay in war untill all your vassals make peace?
Basically yes. The two solutions I have learned after many SP and MP sessions are:
a) Don't DOW unless you don't have the money and loyalty to raise the vassals troops
b) Don't make peace unless your vassals are not already at peace (or in MP, you get a guarantee the other player will sign a WP with tiyr vassal ASAP)
Those who have read the AAR section will be familiar with my experiences leading to these conclusions....
*Or* you can peace, and agree they take a province from your vassal. Or you can peace and say they can annex the vassal, but his daughter has to marry your son. Or you can make peace with him, let him annex your vassal when your ally is annexing another vassal of your enemy (so that you can annex one of your allys allies without your ally freaking out).cheech said:
So Jarko, as suspected, your position revolves around cheap conquest with the aid of others in MP.
Sort of like team chess against a dog, duct-taped into a chair. It must be so fulfilling.
Forgive all us stupid and idiotic people who might play the game differently and will enjoy the new logical feudal hierarchy for peace (thanks Johan.)
tombom my apologies, I didn't mean to insult 13 year olds by comparing them to Jarko's posting style.
Sort of like team chess against a dog, duct-taped into a chair. It must be so fulfilling.
Forgive all us stupid and idiotic people who might play the game differently and will enjoy the new logical feudal hierarchy for peace (thanks Johan.)
tombom my apologies, I didn't mean to insult 13 year olds by comparing them to Jarko's posting style.
LOL! That is a cheap shot if any! If you did play MP you'd know I hate AI bashing. Of course if you are a chicken who don't have the guts to play against other people, then please do shoot your cheap shots, because that is probably the best you can doDinsdale said:
Anyway, whatever. When 1.05 comes out and it has this liege-makes-peace-for-you I am sure there will be lots of foul words thrown around. And you can be sure I will be there to mention the names of those who loudly screamed for that feature
forget him. johan had spoken. and before johan had spoken brownbeard was the last to state his case. therefore it is brownbeard who turned the tide on the issue. now i can enjoy my illusions of grandeur... i think i'll launch a crusade in the caucasus to celebrate.