Petition #2 : Vassals not ending war

[Riddermark]

As it's not fixed in 1.04, let's start the petition for fixing this problem - SOMEHOW. Any resolution will do as long as when liege signs peace same do all the vassals who joined the war. Meaning if YOU are the leader of the war, YOU end it and thus all others are forced to sign peace.

Agree?


Go -> :rofl:

 

[Duuk]

Hold your breath.

 

[Riddermark]

why!?
i had a mint..

 

[Galleblære]

As it's not fixed in 1.04, let's start the petition for fixing this problem - SOMEHOW. Any resolution will do as long as when liege signs peace same do all the vassals who joined the war. Meaning if YOU are the leader of the war, YOU end it and thus all others are forced to sign peace.

Agree?


Go -> :rofl:

Oh please yes. I had to re-enter a war just to save my sorry ass vassal that didn't know when to call it quits.

 

[Gothmog]

While I haven't tested 1.04 yet, I'll sign this one if the above is true and as long as it's not absolute...there should be the potential for self serving vassals to continue on their own, but not blindly so as they most often did in 1.03.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

As it's not fixed in 1.04, let's start the petition for fixing this problem - SOMEHOW. Any resolution will do as long as when liege signs peace same do all the vassals who joined the war. Meaning if YOU are the leader of the war, YOU end it and thus all others are forced to sign peace.

Agree?


Go -> :rofl:

I disagree with this.

While the AI is stupid, it seems to me that feudal thought would allow for your underlings continue to prosecute a war you conclude. As I have long advocated, if your vassals prosecute a war you do not like, revoke their title or declare war on them. If you want to force your vassals to toe the line, you should have to do it the way it was done in the middle ages.

Plus, unless you're a King or independent, that would also mean that the random AI could force you to peace out when you least want to.

 

[Swuul]

I fail to see the problem. Take your vassals troops, then DOW -> vassal won't DOW. Do not take vassals troops, but DOW -> vassal will DOW too most likely.

In EU2 terms, if you call the allies to battle, you are the alliance leader and decide on peace. If you don't call allies, they are free to wage separate wars, and you don't have control over their peace-process.

 

[Brownbeard]

you're missing the point. if you can't force an enemy to make peace with your vassals, any intervention to protect your vassal turns into an endless crusade until you completely destroy the enemy. therefore, any tactic other than global domination and complete destruction of muslims/pagans leads to an annoying and frustrating game. this severely kills roleplay.

plus, if a vassal has issues with the peace treaty you forced him in, he should remember his place and keep his mouth shout, or go fight you for independence if he has the balls to do so. inferiors must know their place in the hierarchy.

 

[Swuul]

you're missing the point.

Nope, you are missing the point. If you don't want the vassals to DOW separately, then mobilise their troops before DOWing. If you want them to DOW separately, then don't mobilise their troops before you DOW.

It really is that simple.

 

[tombom]

Nope, you are missing the point. If you don't want the vassals to DOW separately, then mobilise their troops before DOWing. If you want them to DOW separately, then don't mobilise their troops before you DOW.

It really is that simple.

What if you don't want them to be really disloyal to you? I think this needs to be solved by AI improvements. They should try and make peace if their liege has made peace and they're weaker than the enemy.

 

[Dinsdale]

Nope, you are missing the point. If you don't want the vassals to DOW separately, then mobilise their troops before DOWing. If you want them to DOW separately, then don't mobilise their troops before you DOW.

It really is that simple.

I think Brownbeard is referring to wars declared upon your vassals. Without significant skill in telepathy, mobilising their troops before war is declared will be tricky.

Unless you suggest keeping them mobilised all the time?

 

[Swuul]

What if you don't want them to be really disloyal to you?

Doh... Then perhaps you should improve their loyalty

Perhaps you shouldn't get into wars where you will lose vassals (either because they are smacked after separate DOWs or because you succeed to drop their loyalty so that they rebel)?

 

[Swuul]

I think Brownbeard is referring to wars declared upon your vassals. Without significant skill in telepathy, mobilising their troops before war is declared will be tricky.

No, he is talking about wars where you as the liege DOW without first mobilising vassals, then take what you want and make peace. Then you notice oh dang, my vassals have also DOWed the (former) enemy, and now they are getting their butts kicked. That is simply stupid playing IMO.

OTOH, if AI DOW your vassal you have the option to join and help. If you join, don't make peace before your vassal has made peace. If you make peace before your vassal, then you should go and take a look in the mirror to find out who the person playing stupidly is.

 

[tombom]

Doh... Then perhaps you should improve their loyalty

Perhaps you shouldn't get into wars where you will lose vassals (either because they are smacked after separate DOWs or because you succeed to drop their loyalty so that they rebel)?

Sure you can improve their loyalty. But getting round this by mobilising their troops seems a bit convulted.

The main problem I have is wars declared on vassals and vassals declaring war, especially against enemies that you can't defeat. Then they'll end up destroying themselves and you can't do anything about it unless you want to take the enemy's entire country.

And vassals will still declare war even after you've mobilised their troops.

 

[Dinsdale]

No, he is talking about wars where you as the liege DOW without first mobilising vassals, then take what you want and make peace. Then you notice oh dang, my vassals have also DOWed the (former) enemy, and now they are getting their butts kicked. That is simply stupid playing IMO.

Well I'm sure Brownbeard will be here soon enough to explain, but to me this:

if you can't force an enemy to make peace with your vassals, any intervention to protect your vassal turns into an endless crusa

means he's talking about a defensive war.

OTOH, if AI DOW your vassal you have the option to join and help. If you join, don't make peace before your vassal has made peace. If you make peace before your vassal, then you should go and take a look in the mirror to find out who the person playing stupidly is.

Well I don't think the rudeness or hostility is called for. You obviously have a strange grasp of medieval politics. Whilst the game is simplified so that you cannot talk to your vassals, erring on the side of their obeyance in matters of international diplomacy would IMHO be more sensible than the total war approach the game currently takes. Unless of course you're a big fan of cheap and easy expansion.

BTW is there any need for "stupid" to be applied to every sentence? Are you 13 years old?

 

[tombom]

I'm about 13.

And the comment about making peace before your vassals is stupid gameplay has no backing. What's so stupid about making peace with an enemy a lot bigger than you? If the vassals won't because of bad AI, then it's not the players fault.

 

[Brownbeard]

here's a simple scenario:

somehow King Brownbeard I gets the Duchy of Vukojebina as part of his realm. he grants Vukojebina to one of his faithful courtiers. Vukojebina gets attacked by its evil, evil heathen neighbours, King Brownbeard goes to help the defenseless people of Vukojebina and kicks the shit out of the warmongering heathens. but the warmongering heathens never go to peace with the Duke of Vukojebina, so, to preserve Vukojebina, King Brownbeard must either: destroy the evil heathens attacking it, thus forcing him to create more border duchies that other evil heathens may attack, or be forced to launch campaigns bent on destroying heathen armies on a regular basis to prevent them from seizing Vukojebina. and the fact that the AI behind the Duke of Vukojebina tends to be brain-dead in such situations does not help poor King Brownbeard... poor King Brownbeard, so much troubles rest on his shoulders... poor King Brownbeard...

 

[Swuul]

Oh, let us take a couple of pure hypothetical example, two first are from multi-playing.

Example 1. Player A DOW Player B's vassal. Player B joins in to defend his vassal. After a few years player B has had enough, and make peace with player A. Player A then kick the vassal big time. According to the posts in this thread Player A is _so_ stupid because he refuses to make peace because he is winning.

Example 2. Player A DOW player B. Player A does not bother to first take his vassals troops, but DOW and takes three provinces from Player A in a quick peace. After the peace player A realise his vassals have also DOWed Player B, but since player A is now out of the war, player B is kicking the vassals butt big time. According to the posts in this thread Player B is _so_ stupid because he is taking vengeance on the vassals.

Example 3. Moslem Kingdom A declare war on Player B. Soon there after also the vassals of Kingdom A DOW Player B. Player B offers all his treasury to Kingdom A, who accepts. Player B then proceeds to annex the vassals of Kingdom A. According to the posts in this thread, Player B is _so_ stupid because he refuses to make peace with the vassals and intends instead to annex them.

 

[Swuul]

BTW is there any need for "stupid" to be applied to every sentence? Are you 13 years old?

No. I am 35. And I've seen quite a lot of stupid playing in the past 25 years I've played S&T games, so I think I can rather safely use the word when I see utter stupidity

 

[Galleblære]

Nope, you are missing the point. If you don't want the vassals to DOW separately, then mobilise their troops before DOWing. If you want them to DOW separately, then don't mobilise their troops before you DOW.

It really is that simple.

Are you sure you have played the game? Vassals still declare war even if your armies are mobilized. Also, exacly what is the point of my 150 man army vassal going to the holy land after I have declared peace? To die? He would have to siege a province some 10 years in order to take it.

This sounds to me like the time-tested infamous fan reaction "If you don't like it, don't play the game". Sigh.