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Incompetent

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These are things which annoy me when another player does them. Sorry if there's already a thread for this:

1. Teamthink
This is when players move with the unshakeable intention of securing a draw for their 'team'. They have no intention of trying for 18 centres, and sometimes such players seem to believe that it is possible to win an 'allied victory'. Several things upset me at this point:
a) They help other 'teammates' without helping themselves, causing them to play erratically (from the POV of a player who expects his opponents to try to win).
b) Their strategic worldview is rigid, and divided into clear 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. This makes negotiating with them virtually impossible.
c) If three of them team up like this in a game, they're nearly impossible to beat. Even two completely throw the balance, especially if it's Russia/Turkey. Unless the other players notice immediately and form a bloc of their own, the 'team' will get its vaunted n-way 'victory', completely destroying the competitive spirit of the game, and there's nothing you can do about it.

2. Metagaming
This is when someone plays several games as if they're one big game, and is only a problem if the players are the same from game to game. I know some people think this is just the way of things, but I feel it really spoils play. The primary examples are:
a) Grudges: 'You stabbed me in Game 1. Now we meet again in Game 105, you must PAY!'
b) Cross-game deals: 'I'll let you have Norway in Game 1, if you let me have Greece in Game 2'. If you like this kind of dealing, play 'multiple board Diplomacy' instead, in which the players are specifically arranged to give them all equal cross-board opportunities.

(However, I'd be the last person to say that once a game is over you should forget about what other players have done. If a player gets a reputation for betrayal, you should take it into account when doing deals with them, and be that much more wary. But this is a whole different story to 'punishing' them for prior misdeeds! Your opponents' moves will teach you about their playing style, but Diplomacy only functions if you accept that it is completely amoral.)

3. Intellectual laziness
This is when a player can't be bothered to think about your suggestions or consider alternatives. In face-to-face games I sometimes hear players announce 'we'll only need a couple of minutes to write orders this turn - we all know what we're doing', which I find astonishingly arrogant. I said above games should be kept separate, and furthermore every TURN is like a new game. 'War' and 'alliances' between players only exist in those players' heads, and even the game history is practically irrelevant except as a guide to players' behaviour - the only 'physical' part of the game is who controls which centres and where the units are at the moment you write your orders. While psychology is important, remember that it isn't set in stone, and you can only scratch the surface of what and how other players think.
 

unmerged(48370)

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Well, the "draw first!" mentality has been criticized before, and I agree: they
aren't really playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Gunboat
solves the metagaming problem, and I hope Paradox has come up with some-
thing similar for their game (anonymity).
 

Josephus I

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I don't really have a problem with #1; but only in PBEM games which tend to go on for ever, players drop out, and the 18-supply centre victory can take until next year.

REgarding #2, I totally agree. I have seen that many times. I am guilty of seeking out alliances with players whom I've played games with before. Sometimes in games with three people you know and three you don't, you're more apt to try diplomacy with those you know.

But regarding people who hold grudges...I have seen that. In fact there is one person on this board who refuses to be in a game with me because I stabbed him once way back when... :) Sometimes Dippers take the game waay too personally, IMO.
 

unmerged(46263)

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I'll toss in my opinions, for the sake of discussion, although I feel this has probably already been discussed in detail elsewhere.

Incompetent said:
a) They help other 'teammates' without helping themselves, causing them to play erratically (from the POV of a player who expects his opponents to try to win).

... there's nothing you can do about it.
I'd disagree, and I don't mind when people play like this. On a board of reasonable players, someone who is playing "erratically" and only helping their teammates is easily identified. Anyone who notices / suspects this kind of an alliance should be able to alert everyone else of that fact, and a good diplomat will be able to convince them. A global alliance against such a team should be easy to set up, and the threat of that occurring should be enough to dissuade the players from revealing they are a "team."

You can check out http://www.floc.net/dpjudge/?game=recentone on the DPJudge for an example of an openly declared "Unbreakable Alliance" between Austria and Turkey that very, very quickly ended in disaster for the "Alliance."

Incompetent said:
a) Grudges: 'You stabbed me in Game 1. Now we meet again in Game 105, you must PAY!'
I think this is what makes face-to-face diplomacy great... every game is different, even with the same players and the same positions. Again, in the game "recentone" above, we have all players who have played against each other before. In the previous game, the Russian player had brutally stabbed both the Austrian and Turkish players. A and T declared that Russia would die instantly.

Russia played this perfectly, acting very weak to everyone, and managed to get neutrality from E/G and intervention from I against Austria/Turkey in the early game. He grew very quickly as a result.

Incompetent said:
b) Cross-game deals: 'I'll let you have Norway in Game 1, if you let me have Greece in Game 2'.
Wow, that would suck, and those people should be shot or something. :)

Incompetent said:
3. Intellectual laziness, This is when a player can't be bothered to think about your suggestions or consider alternatives.
I agree that this can be obnoxious, but it can add a level of skill to the game, as if you can identify the powers that are "intellectually lazy," they are much easier to manipulate, and will likely make very loyal, stabbable allies.

In summary, it's my opinion that most of the things that seem like erratic, unfair play are reasonable things for people to do, but that they are not a good idea. As a player that wants to win, identifying those people is an important skill. And if the erratic players are identified and destroyed often enough, they will learn that they should play like us!
 

Carewolf2

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I really don't understand the resentment against teams. It is one of the fundamental points of the game to play in teams to get the upper-hand and then backstab eachother at opportune moments. When playing across multiple games it's even an usefull strategy to not backstab in games where you don't need in order to build up trust you can use in a later game.

What ruins a game is when everyone plays ruthless and selfish all the time, it makes everything predictable.
 

David E. Cohen

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Carewolf2 said:
What ruins a game is when everyone plays ruthless and selfish all the time, it makes everything predictable.

Only when they are not good at it. LOL


Carewolf2 said:
I really don't understand the resentment against teams. It is one of the fundamental points of the game to play in teams to get the upper-hand and then backstab eachother at opportune moments. When playing across multiple games it's even an usefull strategy to not backstab in games where you don't need in order to build up trust you can use in a later game.

There is a difference between reputation building and out-and-out metagaming of the sort previously discussed. Reputation building is an accepted part of the game, in the Hobby. Metagaming, with the limited exception of team tournaments, where it is normally explicitly allowed, will normally enrage everyone who hears about it.
 
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InnocentIII

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1 - Team play seems fine to me. Why can the defeated determine what the action the victors take?

2 - Cross game deals are wrong, I agree.

Backstabbing is clearly legal - it violates no rules. A player who wins a game or two by incessant backstabbing, then finds he cannot do well in his next twenty games because nobody trusts him, ends up with the won/lost record he deserves. Backstabbing is not a skill.

Grudges, on the other hand, are perfectly acceptable. At a minimum, why on earth should anyone trust a player who has stabbed him in the past? This may be a minimal form of 'grudge', but it would be odd for any player not to do this. Trying to knock you out because yout stabbed the person in a prior game seems to me more a difference in degree than in kind from merely not trusting you.

There is also a clear rationality to holding a more serious grudge. Just as nobody will trust a constant backstabber, people are less likely to stab someone with a reputation for haunting stabbers to the end of their days. It will happen, but less often. This also works with a guy who plays with integrity in all games - he's much more likely to be trusted in the next game, which is also as it should be.

"Incentives and disincentives, I learned that in rehab."
 

David E. Cohen

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What is being called "team play" in this thread is normally called "strong alliance" style or "carebear" in the Hobby. It is one of many playing styles, and can be effective at times, though I would say it is more effective for purposes of taking part in a draw or surviving, than it is for winning the game.
 

Incompetent

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David E. Cohen said:
What is being called "team play" in this thread is normally called "strong alliance" style or "carebear" in the Hobby. It is one of many playing styles, and can be effective at times, though I would say it is more effective for purposes of taking part in a draw or surviving, than it is for winning the game.

Effective? Yes, though as you say solo is not really an option - sneaking to 18 centres while still 'allied' to another player counts as betrayal in my book.

Fun? Hmm. The problem is that such carebear alliances tend to force equally solid alliances on other players, eg Austria-Turkey forces Russia-Italy. That's great if you prefer tactical play, but it gets annoying if you prefer more free-flowing diplomacy. As long as there's a possibility of falling out, however slight, it keeps everyone on their toes and means the negotiations retain their tension. What I really hate are unequal alliances where player A still has freedom of action, but player B is totally loyal and does anything A wants. When a player can reliably say 'do as I say or my friend X will attack you,' something's gone wrong.