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Prebyster_Johannes

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I think a rework of Personal Unions is needed. Yes this is an airing of grievances. I was as mentioned in my other post playing as Muscovy, was the number 5 Great Power and had 60k troops. My Grand Duke died early, at 22, without an heir and this triggered a succession war between France and my new overlord 5 province Circassia. It seems to me that a non Great Power should not be allowed to PU a Great Power, let alone one they don't border and don't have near the forces required to secure their overlordship. In game I think you can't offer vassalization to a state with over 100 Development then a smaller state should not get to PU a larger just cause of a birth lottery. The nobility and tertiary royals would find or fabricate an heir or just adopt the sovereign as their own and claim the smaller country. A union would still be based out of the larger power not the smaller. Now the smaller power could get a Unification War of course and maybe there could be a faction in the larger nation that accepts that, maybe based on loyalty of various estates, stability, and economic power you could have a Condoterri type army roaming around allied with the claimant, but to just blanket give control of a nation to a distant and weaker power is in my opinion just janky. I see maluses all the time for vassalizing based on economic, military, and distance but it appears this doesn't apply on PU from smaller nations to larger nations. I don't imagine this will change in EU4 but thanks for reading anyway.
 
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ConjurerDragon

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Personal Unions between large countries and small countries have been quite numerous. And usually that has nothing to do with the size of the two countries but with the person of the ruler who has family ties or enough gold for bribes to extend his influence in both countries.

The Elector of Saxony for example got himself elected King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (both of which are more than double the size of Saxony)

The King of Scotland got to rule England in personal union

King Henri of Navarre who got to rule France

Albrecht of Austria (back then only a small part of nowadays small Austria) became King of Bohemia and King of Hungary

Or Karl V. / Charles V. who started as Duke of Burgundy and added Austria and Spain with it´s colonial empire to his titles, all in personal union with distinct laws and customs.
 
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Prebyster_Johannes

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Personal Unions between large countries and small countries have been quite numerous. And usually that has nothing to do with the size of the two countries but with the person of the ruler who has family ties or enough gold for bribes to extend his influence in both countries.

The Elector of Saxony for example got himself elected King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (both of which are more than double the size of Saxony)

The King of Scotland got to rule England in personal union

King Henri of Navarre who got to rule France

Albrecht of Austria (back then only a small part of nowadays small Austria) became King of Bohemia and King of Hungary

Or Karl V. / Charles V. who started as Duke of Burgundy and added Austria and Spain with it´s colonial empire to his titles, all in personal union with distinct laws and customs.
Those are interesting thanks but doesn't address what I asked. Catherine the Great was a distant and minor Holstein Princess and when she assumed imperial power in Russia she didn't govern from Holstein and direct Russia as a vassal of Prussia or Denmark. In game that is how it would be. Pretty much all of your examples ended up going to the larger nation and governing from that larger nation as the ruler of said larger nation. Henri didn't rule from Navarre he ruled from Paris, James moved to London and never looked back. If this was Crusader Kings what you posted would be invaluable. EU4 is not focused on dynasties but administration of a certain state. Unification Wars need to be fleshed out more, very rarely was it a raffle and champagne popping ceremony like in game. Henri couldn't be crowned in Paris because of resistance to his rule and required extensive foreign meddling to make him King. I want more of that. None of what you said addressed what I asked about game mechanics but I do appreciate the histroy links.
 

Prebyster_Johannes

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Those are interesting thanks but doesn't address what I asked. Catherine the Great was a distant and minor Holstein Princess and when she assumed imperial power in Russia she didn't govern from Holstein and direct Russia as a vassal of Prussia or Denmark. In game that is how it would be. Pretty much all of your examples ended up going to the larger nation and governing from that larger nation as the ruler of said larger nation. Henri didn't rule from Navarre he ruled from Paris, James moved to London and never looked back. If this was Crusader Kings what you posted would be invaluable. EU4 is not focused on dynasties but administration of a certain state. Unification Wars need to be fleshed out more, very rarely was it a raffle and champagne popping ceremony like in game. Henri couldn't be crowned in Paris because of resistance to his rule and required extensive foreign meddling to make him King. I want more of that. None of what you said addressed what I asked about game mechanics but I do appreciate the histroy links.
Not to mention William of Orange. Strangely he went to England after undermining Stuart rule there and ruled as King of England not King of Orange. In game this would be a minor Dutch province controlling England. I just want more nuance to Unification. Direct as is depicted in game (Kalmar Union, Unification Wars, etc where a foreign power of equal or greater strength seizes the throne), Indirect maybe a stability hit or money going back to a home province like Augustus the Strong, or increased rebellion as happened in England under your aforementioned Stuart. There is a lot more nuance than you or the game is depicting and adding that would be a good thing. Maybe events or choices to how the administrative state of a nation would react to the new dynasty.
 

ConjurerDragon

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Those are interesting thanks but doesn't address what I asked. Catherine the Great was a distant and minor Holstein Princess and when she assumed imperial power in Russia she didn't govern from Holstein and direct Russia as a vassal of Prussia or Denmark. In game that is how it would be. Pretty much all of your examples ended up going to the larger nation and governing from that larger nation as the ruler of said larger nation. Henri didn't rule from Navarre he ruled from Paris, James moved to London and never looked back. If this was Crusader Kings what you posted would be invaluable. EU4 is not focused on dynasties but administration of a certain state. Unification Wars need to be fleshed out more, very rarely was it a raffle and champagne popping ceremony like in game. Henri couldn't be crowned in Paris because of resistance to his rule and required extensive foreign meddling to make him King. I want more of that. None of what you said addressed what I asked about game mechanics but I do appreciate the histroy links.
Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst was not ruling anything when she married Peter III. Her father was ruling the principality of Anhalt-Zerbst and was later succeeded by his oldest surviving son. So we do not have any personal union here where a minor country takes over a major country in a personal union but simply a non-ruling princess marrying far up into the high nobility of Russia. A personal union only did appear after her brothers death - the already small principality was divided into 3 parts and only in one part (Jever) they had semi-salic law (a woman can inherit if there are no sons) so she ruled both Russia and tiny Jever in personal union.
 
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Not to mention William of Orange. Strangely he went to England after undermining Stuart rule there and ruled as King of England not King of Orange. In game this would be a minor Dutch province controlling England. I just want more nuance to Unification. Direct as is depicted in game (Kalmar Union, Unification Wars, etc where a foreign power of equal or greater strength seizes the throne), Indirect maybe a stability hit or money going back to a home province like Augustus the Strong, or increased rebellion as happened in England under your aforementioned Stuart. There is a lot more nuance than you or the game is depicting and adding that would be a good thing. Maybe events or choices to how the administrative state of a nation would react to the new dynasty.
The principality of Orange would not be a minor dutch province. It was located in southern France, within nowadays Provence, very near to the papal possessions in Avignon.
 
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Prebyster_Johannes

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Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst was not ruling anything when she married Peter III. Her father was ruling the principality of Anhalt-Zerbst and was later succeeded by his oldest surviving son. So we do not have any personal union here where a minor country takes over a major country in a personal union but simply a non-ruling princess marrying far up into the high nobility of Russia. A personal union only did appear after her brothers death - the already small principality was divided into 3 parts and only in one part (Jever) they had semi-salic law (a woman can inherit if there are no sons) so she ruled both Russia and tiny Jever in personal union.
No shitake Sherlock, hence the "Catherine the Great was a distant and minor Holstein Princess and when she assumed imperial power " it's like you don't read what is posted but are hurrying to respond. Thanks again for the information that is irrelevant to the post and point.
 
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The principality of Orange would not be a minor dutch province. It was located in southern France, within nowadays Provence, very near to the papal possessions in Avignon.
What does that have to do with the fact that William of Orange was Dutch, in game would be Dutch, and that a Dutchman would rule England? Or that per game mechanics an insignificant slice of France would now be dictating English foreign policy despite the fact that historically he was King of England and ruled as an English King from London, not a Dutchman not a Frenchman, but as King of England from London and not Orange. Are you obtuse by choice or nature? Address mechanics or please stop posting cause you're not making sense though I do appreciate history lessons and you furthering my point.
 
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This is just one of many examples of how EU4's format isn't really able to translate the actual mechanics of feudal and dynastic relations into gameplay. There are many cases of the ruler of a smaller polity becoming monarch of a larger one where it'd make more sense for that ruler to take control of the larger polity with their smaller polity becoming a junior partner. I think the way the Jagiellion event works kinda mimics that? Poland gets Lithuania's ruler who then rules from Poland with Lithuania as junior partner.

So it might be more logical for your Muscovy to get a Circassian ruler with Circassia as junior partner... but then you'd effectively be rewarded for purposefully going heirless as a bigger nation.

It's a bit of a mess either way.
 
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This is just one of many examples of how EU4's format isn't really able to translate the actual mechanics of feudal and dynastic relations into gameplay. There are many cases of the ruler of a smaller polity becoming monarch of a larger one where it'd make more sense for that ruler to take control of the larger polity with their smaller polity becoming a junior partner. I think the way the Jagiellion event kinda mimics that? Poland gets Lithuania's ruler who then rules from Poland with Lithuania as junior partner.

So it might be more logical for your Muscovy to get a Circassian ruler with Circassia as junior partner... but then you'd effectively be rewarded for purposefully going heirless as a bigger nation.

It's a bit of a mess either way.
It is but that's how things worked out. France should not be able to march across Europe to claim Muscovy and Circassia should not be able to just willy nilly be the rulers of a nation 10x their size. Circassian royals could claim Muscovy but they would not rule from Circassia they would rule from Moscow like a normal autocrat who inherited a Great Power. Mechanics should be there to reflect this. As the original JackWagon showed in his wikipedia there are examples of this however they were incorporated into the power structure of the existing nation.
 

jonjowett

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I agree with some of what you're saying, but not all of it.

I agree that it is unlikely that a small powerless nation would be senior partner over an extremely large and powerful nation. But I disagree with you about wars where other nations can contest newly-formed PUs - they seem fine to me.

So, I'd add a couple of things to the arsenal of every junior partner:
  • Ask to become senior partner (AI will only accept if you're MUCH bigger)
  • CB to become senior partner (as an alternative to independence, but you won't get external allies to help you out)
This could make for some interesting alternative choices - eg.:
  • As Naples, maybe you wait for the Iberian wedding then fight both Aragon and Castille to become overlord of Spain.
  • As Sweden, maybe you try to take the Kalmar Union instead of independence.
 
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What does that have to do with the fact that William of Orange was Dutch, in game would be Dutch, and that a Dutchman would rule England? Or that per game mechanics an insignificant slice of France would now be dictating English foreign policy despite the fact that historically he was King of England and ruled as an English King from London, not a Dutchman not a Frenchman, but as King of England from London and not Orange. Are you obtuse by choice or nature? Address mechanics or please stop posting cause you're not making sense though I do appreciate history lessons and you furthering my point.
It is important to be exact in what one writes to avoid confusion.

For example your use of "William of Orange" could refer to two people, William the Silent
and William III. of England
who were both called William of Orange due to their dynasty.

"Prince of Orange", the latter which you assumed to be "a minor dutch province" and actually is in southern France, however had just been their main title before taking over the rule of the Netherland or England. The full family name is the house of Orange-Nassau

William of Orange (the Silent) was born in Dillenburg within the County of Nassau in the west, left on this map:
So William of Orange (the Silent) was not as you assume a Dutchman who would start to rule England but actually born german which is still mentioned in the Netherlands anthem "Het Wilhelmus"
which mentions a Prince of german blood (prinz of duytschen bloet, where duytsch is the old form of deutsch).
 
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ConjurerDragon

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It is but that's how things worked out. France should not be able to march across Europe to claim Muscovy and Circassia should not be able to just willy nilly be the rulers of a nation 10x their size. Circassian royals could claim Muscovy but they would not rule from Circassia they would rule from Moscow like a normal autocrat who inherited a Great Power. Mechanics should be there to reflect this. As the original JackWagon showed in his wikipedia there are examples of this however they were incorporated into the power structure of the existing nation.
Historically when the throne of a major country was at stake then the contenders would wage sorts of early world wars. The War of Spanish and the war of Austrian succession involved fighting on several continents due to Britain and France being involved. France historically got involved in the War of Polish Succession, so going the full way to get involved in a war over the throne of Muscovy does not seem to be too far fetched. That should be and stay possible.
 
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The player is warned in advance if their ruler dying will cause a PU. This gives an opportunity to go to war with anyone, in order to be 100% impossible to be PU'd. Another alternative is to alt-f4 when PU'd and then reopen the game and it'll go back in time around a month. Sometimes its good to having your ruler die while at war with no heir, as it may switch your dynasty to the dynasty of a nation you already have a royal marriage with, which can be positive if you're hoping to claim their throne later, but also a negative as your nation loses a huge amount of legitimacy when dynasty changing - so pro's and cons depending on the dynasty.

I too also abandoned many campaigns if I got PU'd when I was a beginner so I guess a rework only makes sense if its a good design.
 
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