Personal Unions - No Fun and All Luck Based

[Jaol]

I think they're similar to coalitions. Potentially awesome mechanics, that aren't quite there yet. Coalitions need to be more focused, and maybe even have a clear goal; and similarly PUs and succession wars need to be more tied into the idea of a balance of power.

I'd love to see something like the V2 crisis system whenever a succession war is going to break out. Rather than just have the two sides declare war, interested nations could back one or another side even if they don't have an alliance with one of the claimants.

 

[Snugwow]

I believe the only thing that needs to be changed about PU's is some kind of mechanic which makes the newly formed union a massive target if one Great Power PU's another Great Power, or the whole "Great Power" mechanic being established better. Right now being a great power is only a diplomatic malus between yourself and other great powers and nothing else. There should be a serious reaction from the AI and the other great powers if France gets into a PU with Russia or Spain or something like that.

 

[Manchester.bw]

I want a simplified CK2-ish dynasty system for EU4 ^^

 

[dstarsboy]

I have played over 400 hours and multiple games. Most games I play from start to finish and end up with 0 ZERO, none PU's. Yes it is luck based but it does not happen all the time. I also rarely push hard to get PU's. Most of my marriages are to vassals.

I would like to see more succession wars but the way I play I will rarely see any. But that is the way I play not the way everybody should play.

Zero? Zero!? ZERO!?!

Yeah, I think it's a play style for sure. As I mentioned before, I play (Christian/Kingdom) games with almost 100% focus on the PUs system and I can usually finish a game with 2 or 3 on moderately powerful nations in hand.

I believe the only thing that needs to be changed about PU's is some kind of mechanic which makes the newly formed union a massive target if one Great Power PU's another Great Power, or the whole "Great Power" mechanic being established better. Right now being a great power is only a diplomatic malus between yourself and other great powers and nothing else. There should be a serious reaction from the AI and the other great powers if France gets into a PU with Russia or Spain or something like that.

I wouldn't mind this, mainly because I would actually get notified when PUs occur to my neighbors. I was playing as Burgundy waiting for the right time to take out some HRE riff raff when I realized that Austria got a PU on France... like 10 years ago... wtf. You'd think the game would have let me know about such a game changer?!? Especially in relation to all of the completely insignificant messages it pops up constantly.

 

[Hardin4188]

In a game I imported from ck2 I got a personal union after unpausing the game. I didn't integrate them until after 1730 though. I just felt too powerful already.

 

[dstarsboy]

In a game I imported from ck2 I got a personal union after unpausing the game. I didn't integrate them until after 1730 though. I just felt too powerful already.

Relatively speaking, you're less powerful after you integrate them.

 

[Fryslan0109]

One thing OP mentioned that I really agree to. I find it frustrating that neither vassals nor PUs pursue any kind of colonization. I mean, I understand why P''dox would design it that way, but it seems highly implausible, especially if the nation in question has already started colonizing.

What they should do is make it possible for countries under PUs or vassal relationships to overthrow their masters. Having them be able to colonize is one road they can take to strengthen themselves for such a fight.

 

[Calbrenar]

It's definitely annoying how it works. I've gotten huge PU's when I was tiny and then I've been in situations like I am now where I have Milan as a major Italian power about to take the emperorship with so many royal marriages I LOSE dipo poins (12) and I haven't had a single person be my dynasty let alone get a PU lol

 

[Calbrenar]

Relatively speaking, you're less powerful after you integrate them.

Considering you get to lead their armies, you get taxes, and you can build up buildings you are far more powerful for integrating in every way.

 

[grommile]

Considering you get to lead their armies, you get taxes, and you can build up buildings you are far more powerful for integrating in every way.

If they're large, then when you factor in that you wipe the top building of each type (other than forts) in all their provinces, and that your monarch point surplus does not double even though your number of provinces might nearly do so, it's not that clear-cut.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Zero? Zero!? ZERO!?!

Yeah, I think it's a play style for sure. As I mentioned before, I play (Christian/Kingdom) games with almost 100% focus on the PUs system and I can usually finish a game with 2 or 3 on moderately powerful nations in hand.



I wouldn't mind this, mainly because I would actually get notified when PUs occur to my neighbors. I was playing as Burgundy waiting for the right time to take out some HRE riff raff when I realized that Austria got a PU on France... like 10 years ago... wtf. You'd think the game would have let me know about such a game changer?!? Especially in relation to all of the completely insignificant messages it pops up constantly.

Yes, like many things in the game Europe's stuff is better for the mechanic, followed by the Muslim nations which can fish nearly as well.

One of the biggest problems in Asia for PUs is that there's only one target worth your time in terms of it at the start (Ming), which is a lot of eggs in one basket. With how weak AI Ming is and how incredible say Shun can be as a vassal, a PU there is only decent anyway.

 

[Casadoom]

Instead of automatic PU, the 'inheriting' country should simply get a Claim Throne casus beli. Straight up PU is broken and, frankly, ahistorical if you care about that sort of thing.

Countries don't simply hand over the throne because the ruler run out of heirs, their nobles fight with each other for the throne instead of giving the throne to a foreigner to someone who the royal family had once married. If it can be even called marriage when the Royal Marriage option with 50 countries is available without even having a heir.

Add a dynasty UI and then we can actually talk about Royal Marriages.

 

[PedroVargas]

I like a little luck factor. And I'm getting random PUs far less often than in previous patches (when I got France every third game and once got orthodox Ottomans as Austria without even having a marriage)

Also I'm a lot less lucky in "planned" PUs. In my current Najd game I claimed the throne of the 70yr old Timurid king. And bang he gets an heir.

If there's a more complex dynasty and PU system coming in the future, that would be fine. Until then I try to have fun with the current concept.

 

[vranasm]

Instead of automatic PU, the 'inheriting' country should simply get a Claim Throne casus beli. Straight up PU is broken and, frankly, ahistorical if you care about that sort of thing.

Countries don't simply hand over the throne because the ruler run out of heirs, their nobles fight with each other for the throne instead of giving the throne to a foreigner to someone who the royal family had once married. If it can be even called marriage when the Royal Marriage option with 50 countries is available without even having a heir.

Add a dynasty UI and then we can actually talk about Royal Marriages.

well while I generally agree that the PU mechanism should be bettered and claim throne CB would be great addition, that second paragraph isn't that true...

especially in Bohemia we gave away throne to foreigners when our ruling dynasty died out... it was based on noble's voting, but it happened. (I think at first it was Jan Lucembursky, then Jaggelovci, not sure how the Habsburgs came to the Czech crone)

 

[pkderek]

One thing OP mentioned that I really agree to. I find it frustrating that neither vassals nor PUs pursue any kind of colonization. I mean, I understand why P''dox would design it that way, but it seems highly implausible, especially if the nation in question has already started colonizing.

What they should do is make it possible for countries under PUs or vassal relationships to overthrow their masters. Having them be able to colonize is one road they can take to strengthen themselves for such a fight.

Quite the opposite, vassals and PU's do colonize. PU Castille or Portugal through console and watch the magic...

I didn't see anything in 1.4 notes that says otherwise, nor in 1.5 though I haven't played a long enough game yet. They did in previous versions, I can testify to that.

What I would actually like is something in between Protectorate and Vassal. Diplomacy like a Protectorate where they still operate as an independent nation but can only ally you and say they give like 30% trade power, 20% taxes. Uses a diplo slot but is not married to you eternally like a vassal is. Kind of like a PU in that regard, where they can accept independence treaties and will call for independence if they feel powerful enough.

Instead of automatic PU, the 'inheriting' country should simply get a Claim Throne casus beli. Straight up PU is broken and, frankly, ahistorical if you care about that sort of thing.

You didn't play the good old days of 1.0 then. There used to be a Claim Throne CB every time that you pressed the Claim Throne button, I still think that is a valid CB and needs to return. Sure it can get a little cheesy and the AI didn't make full use of it, but if you 100% occupy a country I don't think it is unheard of to install yourself as their ruler. Of course this would come with a lot of malus, AE from PU (in 1.3 you got AE's from PU so if you PU France the entirety of Europe hated you. Hopefully that makes a return with the AE buff in 1.5), and there needs to be a special rebel type for PU's that are specifically trying to free said nation.

 

[Dakilla TM]

What are you talking about? I rarely get PUs at all. ANd even if I do, it's with regional powers like Bavaria or Brandenburg. Only in ONE of my games, I've gotten a PU streak. I was Spain, and I controlled Britain, Austria, and Commonwealth, all through PUs. That was a while back, and stuff like that hasn't happened since. If I were you, I wouldn't be complaining, as I want to get PUs, but I never really do get it.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

I like personal unions since it can dramatically change the dynamic of the game, my only real issue with the mechanic is that the ai doesn’t try to form a coalition to break the union even if the union is between two very powerful nations.

This!

Having a PU should be more potentially risky.

 

[Casadoom]

especially in Bohemia we gave away throne to foreigners when our ruling dynasty died out... it was based on noble's voting, but it happened. (I think at first it was Jan Lucembursky, then Jaggelovci, not sure how the Habsburgs came to the Czech crone)

Not that I am familiar with you country's history but Bohemia had elective monarchy, the wishes of the local nobility were respected from what you say. Plus, I assume that countries within the HRE considered themselves closer to each other than foreigners. But yes, my statement might be quite wrong but I don't think it is that far from the truth because I find it hard to believe that Russia would ever accept a French ruler just because their Tsar married a French princess that gave him no heirs.

You didn't play the good old days of 1.0 then. There used to be a Claim Throne CB every time that you pressed the Claim Throne button, I still think that is a valid CB and needs to return. Sure it can get a little cheesy and the AI didn't make full use of it, but if you 100% occupy a country I don't think it is unheard of to install yourself as their ruler. Of course this would come with a lot of malus, AE from PU (in 1.3 you got AE's from PU so if you PU France the entirety of Europe hated you. Hopefully that makes a return with the AE buff in 1.5), and there needs to be a special rebel type for PU's that are specifically trying to free said nation.

I didn't really play much during that time due to PC issues but I do remember that feature. That's not what I was thinking about.

What I was thinking was more along the lines of:

On monarch death, a noble from the local nobility rises to the throne, and the country that shares dynasty can use the establish PU casus belli.

Unlike how the game currently handles the definition shares dynasty, which means having the same name, I would have handled it differently in my ideal scenario. On the date of birth, the heir shares dynasty with the RMed country with the highest prestige (Well, ideally you could only RM one country or have a proper dynasty tree but that's another story for another day). This would also make the illegitimate child event quite useful too!

 

[vranasm]

Not that I am familiar with you country's history but Bohemia had elective monarchy, the wishes of the local nobility were respected from what you say. Plus, I assume that countries within the HRE considered themselves closer to each other than foreigners. But yes, my statement might be quite wrong but I don't think it is that far from the truth because I find it hard to believe that Russia would ever accept a French ruler just because their Tsar married a French princess that gave him no heirs.

Well I guess everyone can make some weird scenarios which we are sure won't ever happen in real life...

I think I am on your side if all you want to say is that the mechanism has to be bettered in a more sensible thing . Maybe distance should be some of the factors when deciding if the PU would or would not happen.

Maybe in the end we need better dynasty system overall so we get a bit closer to CK II... since especially the first 2 centuries of the era were still about monarchs then the 'states'.

Oh while I am a bit on the topic of 'states'... I think the game does very wrong with coring being the THING how to absorb, since I think the THING that forms a 'state' is actually culture... but that's maybe for EU V material ;-)

 

[RogerWilco]

I mostly play republics and I hate being trolled by PUs while not being able to take part in the lottery myself. As if the Glorious Revolution never happened, even if that didn't really follow PU mechanics, the end was a PU between a republic and a monarchy.