Personal Unions - No Fun and All Luck Based

[Yxklyx]

I like games to be challenging, I don't want them to just hand me a lottery prize for pressing the Royal Marriage button. As Portugal I got a PU with England, as Hesse I got a PU with France. That's half of my games I'm able to acquire a major power with no effort at all. When a major power gets taken out of the game like this, the world becomes emptier. It doesn't colonize or do anything else - other than supply you with armies. There should be an upper limit on the number of provinces that can be inherited - maybe those nations automatically break the PU when the first ruler dies.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I like games to be challenging, I don't want them to just hand me a lottery prize for pressing the Royal Marriage button. As Portugal I got a PU with England, as Hesse I got a PU with France. That's half of my games I'm able to acquire a major power with no effort at all. When a major power gets taken out of the game like this, the world becomes emptier. It doesn't colonize or do anything else - other than supply you with armies. There should be an upper limit on the number of provinces that can be inherited - maybe those nations automatically break the PU when the first ruler dies.

PU main issue is that they run against the grain of every other design choice regarding expansion in the game, and on top of that it's strongly luck based.

Want to conquer Ming? Fight multiple wars. Beat a giant Russia? Spend most of the game taking it piece by piece maxing out at 100% war score. France? The capitol alone will be fun.

Ooooooooor, get LUCKY! Derp!

The devs wanted to give people a lotto I guess. If you have diplo ideas maxed you can make and break royal marriages for the cost of only 1 prestige, so just use that to fish for PUs with big nations. Another trick is to do things that get your heir killed while having high prestige, such that you get the dynasty of a big power. Then, claim their throne when they have a weak heir.

It's not 100% luck based, just far too luck-based to give such an enormous reward in a strategy game that otherwise seeks to penalize/slow such expansion greatly.

 

[yahiko]

I mostly agree. We should at least be able to enable/disable PU in game settings.

 

[hwoosh]

I mostly agree. We should at least be able to enable/disable PU in game settings.

That suggestion is both ridiculous and unimaginative.

 

[yahiko]

That suggestion is both ridiculous and unimaginative.

Your suggestion so?

 

[Yxklyx]

I'd say that if the junior has ~15 (or some such number) or more provinces (or you could use Base Tax numbers) the following happens:

The Personal Union works normally until the senior's ruler dies at which time the Union breaks. This still leaves a slim chance of Integrating if the senior is very young and lives long. If the senior ruler dies during Integration, the Integration fails.

 

[hwoosh]

I'd say that if the junior has ~15 (or some such number) or more provinces (or you could use Base Tax numbers) the following happens:

The Personal Union works normally until the senior's ruler dies at which time the Union breaks.

There already is a mechanism for PUs to break up: the senior partner must have positive prestige, and the junior partner must have a positive opinion of the senior partner, in order for the union to continue on ruler death.

 

[hwoosh]

Your suggestion so?

All we really need is more transparency in how the chance of random PU is computed, so that it's possible for the player to optimize his chances.

It's usually a terrible idea to give players the option to turn central gameplay mechanics on and off in the settings. Every such option is essentially a whole new version of the game that the devs have to put resources into balancing.

 

[LarryLeica]

It's not just luck based though is it.

If you maintain high prestige and strategically marry nations with no heir and/or elderly ruler you can increase your chance of getting a PU. There is a strategy to it which involves maximising your chance of getting a PU, this works for the AI as well. There is of course a random chance, but so much of EU4 is random chance already, there could be a better way but what would it be given that so many of the game's mechanics are reliant on RNG?

Of course, when France gets a PU with a fully expanded Russia and you are stuck in the middle, the dynamic of the game changes dramatically, and to some players this may no longer be fun, to others they see it as a challenge. The way PUs get integrated could be better, but with the latest patches AI nations actually attempt independence and ask for support for it too, which is excellent.

 

[dstarsboy]

I've experienced where getting a lucky PU has made the game too easy for me... it's a given and granted it makes it not very fun... HOWEVER, I cannot for the love of God stop myself from trying like hell to get PUs on major countries. I watch the "Disputed Succession" tab like a hawk and probably spend more of the game checking succession chances on my RMs than actually conquering provinces. It's a bit addictive, it's a lot like winning the lottery.

That said, I do wish they would pop up a question asking if you'd like to accept the PU instead of making it automatic. This would solve those ridiculous OPN PUS that you're stuck wasting a relation slot on for 50 years.

 

[grommile]

That said, I do wish they would pop up a question asking if you'd like to accept the PU instead of making it automatic. This would solve those ridiculous OPN PUS that you're stuck wasting a relation slot on for 50 years.

As a rule, I don't accept RMs from OPMs unless (a) they're an Imperial elector or (b) I'm lining up to diplovassalize them.

 

[AtomicTank]

Succession Wars

When there is a possible personal union, there has been a failure to generate a strong heir in the prize jurisdiction. Obviously, you could get several outcomes.

1. The Personal Union forms according to rules of inheritance.
2. There is a succession war of foreign powers.
3. There is a weak heir who must fight off foreign powers.
4. There is a weak heir who must fight off other domestic parties with other weak claims.
5. A combination of 3 and 4.
6. There are non-heir domestic parties with weak claims (pretenders) that will fight with foreigners.
7. A large country could have latent regional nationalism that could surge during the crisis (claims from no-longer existing countries). Existing rebellions would probably escalate massively.

One would think that the probability of #1 increases with the national power of the leading jurisdiction relative to the alternatives. If the claimants are small, #7 could be a massive problem, especially if the large country was built through personal unions leaving massive territories with non-favored cultures.

I do not know if Paradox would be motivated to articulate the possibilities with deep complexity, but the potential is there.

 

[Blutharsch121]

When there is a possible personal union, there has been a failure to generate a strong heir in the prize jurisdiction. Obviously, you could get several outcomes.
...

Historically, though, I think 1. is the least common. It has usually been one, or a combination, of 2-4.

 

[InceptionofwaR]

I've experienced where getting a lucky PU has made the game too easy for me... it's a given and granted it makes it not very fun.

I've never been one to need a game to be challenging in order to have fun. I've played three games so far without a PU but if I ever did luck up with a powerful one I'd be laughing maniacally as the world bows to my overwhelming might :laugh:

 

[Steelers1990]

I have played over 400 hours and multiple games. Most games I play from start to finish and end up with 0 ZERO, none PU's. Yes it is luck based but it does not happen all the time. I also rarely push hard to get PU's. Most of my marriages are to vassals.

I would like to see more succession wars but the way I play I will rarely see any. But that is the way I play not the way everybody should play.

 

[unmerged(747190)]

I don't mind the mechanic existing, I just want a way to release junior partners from my own PUs so that I can opt out of my own ridiculous inheritances. Currently you wait 50 years, integrate, release as vassal, wait 5 years (or was it 10?), release vassal. I want a button that installs a member of my dynasty as the junior partner's new monarch and releases the PU as a sovereign state. It could go at the bottom of the list of "Create Vassals". Charles V von Habsburg of Spain and the HRE springs to mind (but I could have the regnal number wrong and hence the whole reference).

If this button exists and I don't know about it, I'd appreciate a heads up.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I have played over 400 hours and multiple games. Most games I play from start to finish and end up with 0 ZERO, none PU's. Yes it is luck based but it does not happen all the time. I also rarely push hard to get PU's. Most of my marriages are to vassals.

I would like to see more succession wars but the way I play I will rarely see any. But that is the way I play not the way everybody should play.

1.4 buffed diplo finisher such that you get only -1 prestige (no stab) for breaking RMs. If you see an old ruler, might as well try.

 

[Themilo]

I like personal unions since it can dramatically change the dynamic of the game, my only real issue with the mechanic is that the ai doesn’t try to form a coalition to break the union even if the union is between two very powerful nations.

 

[Atris]

PU's are realy really f***ing rare in 1.4. I made a game solely based on diplomacy with Austria to hunt PU'S. I had 11 available diplo relation slots. My diplomatic reputation was through the roof, prestige always near 100 and I never even got the same dynasty with anyone else. ( I got the PU missions for Austria but those are , well missions)

They are very rare and you can easily break them by maintaining a negative relationship. So I honestly cant see it as a problem.

 

[grommile]

I like personal unions since it can dramatically change the dynamic of the game, my only real issue with the mechanic is that the ai doesn’t try to form a coalition to break the union even if the union is between two very powerful nations.

It's not even easy(1) for the meatbag to force-break a union between two very powerful nations, and you want the AI to do it?

(1) At least, to the extent that anything in EU4 is "not easy", which different people will have different opinions about.