Personal example of a matrilineal marriage

[ValmontMontjoie]

Hey y'all!

Hope everyone is doing well on here.

I have seen several threads wondering about the authenticity of "matrilineal" marriages in medieval times.

As it turns out, I have a good example of one in my family in the 14th century.

The Baronnie de Sassenage was one of the 4 baronies in the Dauphiné (located in the Viennois county in the game).

In his will dated to 1328 François de Sassenage names all 6 of his children: 1°) Albert, 2°) Beatrix widow of Aymar de Béranger, 3°) his late daughter Catherine, who was married to Rollet de Rochefort, 4°) Eléonore married to Jean de Béranger, 5°) Annette, not yet married and 6°) Leonette, who is in a nunnery.

He appoints as his universal heir his son Albert, and if the latter were to die without male heirs the baronnie de Sassenage would go to François de Beranger, first son of his daughter Béatrix. If François were to die without male heirs the barony would go to Henri de Beranger, Béatrix's second son.

The list goes on for all the sons (and potential sons) of all the daughters mentionned above.

François de Sassenage puts one condition: whoever was to inherit the barony was to take the names and heraldry of the Sassenage.

Albert de Sassenage, François's son, will later inherit the barony but will only have illegitimate daughter Catherine. (She will be named "my uncle's bastard" in her cousin's will.)

When Albert de Sassenage died, the barony was inherited by Henri de Béranger who then took the name of Henry de Sassenage. He was the head of the second house of Sassenage.

When he makes his own will in 1408, after appointing his own sons as heirs, he makes provisions for his cousins and nephews all under the conditions that they give up their names and coats of arms for those of Sassenage if they were to inherit the barony.

I have provided a brief family tree so you can see the succession line.

Even if it didn't really happen CKII style (Béatrix was never in charge of the barony herself) it does provide a medieval example of nobles giving up their father's name and heraldry for their mother's.

Have you heard of any others?

Do you think that applies as a matrilineal marriage?

One thing for sure: it perfecty shows the troubles of a medieval ruler who had "too many" daughters and not enough sons!

 

[Blk82]

Some out-of-period examples include the marriage of the current British Queen and Maria Theresa of Austria.

 

[Rags17]

Some out-of-period examples include the marriage of the current British Queen and Maria Theresa of Austria.

This brings up two interesting questions -

1. Didn't Maria Theresa die in the 18th century ? and
2. Wouldn't Elizabeth have to divorce Philip first, or as the head of the Church of England did she give herself a special dispensation to marry a woman ?

 

[Woifee]

Not sure if Maria-Theresa qualifies. She was a Habsburg and her kids were Habsburg-Lorraine. She and her Husband started a new Line. The house of Habsburg died with her.

And she is way out if time frame.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

This brings up two interesting questions -

1. Didn't Maria Theresa die in the 18th century ? and
2. Wouldn't Elizabeth have to divorce Philip first, or as the head of the Church of England did she give herself a special dispensation ?

Elizabeth issued Letters Patent, which she could do as Monarch

 

[SLKRR]

Not sure if Maria-Theresa qualifies. She was a Habsburg and her kids were Habsburg-Lorraine. She and her Husband started a new Line. The house of Habsburg died with her.

And she is way out if time frame.

For that matter, the descendants of Queen Elizabeth II are surnamed Mountbatten-Windsor. Although the royal house remains "Windsor", they technically still carry Prince Philip's surname.

 

[GeordieJames]

The Percy family, who were/are wealthy and powerful magnates in Northern England (as Barons Percy, then the Earls and later Dukes of Northumberland) have twice seen something like this happen; one example within the CK2 time period. Whether the concept of matrilineal marriages existed or not, there are two instances where inheritance went through the female line, but the name Percy remained. The third Baron had only one daughter as an heir, but her husband adopted the name Percy on marriage in the late twelfth century.

The second instance saw an abeyance of the title first, and was also in 1766, but the example above is pretty much how CK2 handles it.

 

[Thure]

Queen Tamar of Georgia is the best exemple:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamar_of_Georgia

And the House of Este:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welf_I,_Duke_of_Bavaria

He is by modern historiographs counted as member of another branch, but he was part of the Welf family because of his mother.

Just two exemples. Also historically matrilineary MARRIAGES didn't happen. It was more like that the kid inherited the name of the most prestigouse parent. If the mother was the king and the father was a small landlord he would inherite his mothers name in most cases. But that's not a perfect rule, there was no rule about it in the middle ages. Sometimes they used the name of the mother, sometimes they don't. There is no clear rule here.

 

[Tyler96]

Not sure if Maria-Theresa qualifies. She was a Habsburg and her kids were Habsburg-Lorraine. She and her Husband started a new Line. The house of Habsburg died with her.

Her descendants are often referred to colloquially as just "Habsburgs," though.

Another out-of-period example (sorta) are the Romanovs- Peter III was, agnatically, a member of the House of Holstein-Gottorp, but he and his descendants are mostly just known as "Romanovs".

For that matter, the descendants of Queen Elizabeth II are surnamed Mountbatten-Windsor. Although the royal house remains "Windsor", they technically still carry Prince Philip's surname.

Though Philip of course adopted the "Mountbatten" surname from his mother's family, by birth (and in the male line) he's a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.

 

[Woifee]

Her descendants are often referred to colloquially as just "Habsburgs," though.

Another out-of-period example (sorta) are the Romanovs- Peter III was, agnatically, a member of the House of Holstein-Gottorp, but he and his descendants are mostly just known as "Romanovs".



Though Philip of course adopted the "Mountbatten" surname from his mother's family, by birth (and in the male line) he's a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.

In my village I’m referred to by the name of the farm I grew up on not by my family name. Still in all my documents I have my family name. Naming me by some other name doesn’t give me this name.

 

[Chevaresqye]

There was not even patrilineal married in middle age. Monarch just marrying each other and pass their realm to their closest family member by blood, and no one really care which dynasty their kid belong to because simply the ideal of dynasty name only pass through patrilineal descendants is more of a renaissance historian convention than a medieval reality.

If you read primary source, you will see that dynasty names appear pretty rarely as a lot of dynasty names were given by historians of early-modern era, and they used male-line as a tool to split the line of monarchs into neatly categorized branch. But for medieval rulers, children of their daughter were always a member of both dynasties, and many monarch refer to pass their realm to their daughters instead of their brother for the very same reason.

 

[SLKRR]

Though Philip of course adopted the "Mountbatten" surname from his mother's family, by birth (and in the male line) he's a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.

Well, since the Windsors themselves are actually Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, that means that Charles should be a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha... or something like that. ;-)

 

[Blk82]

Dynasties do not perpetuate indefinitely, but in real life, they form cadet branches. The French royals houses of Valois and Bourbon are cadet branches of the House of Capet, which in turn is a cadet branch of the Robertians. If you extend back the male lines back infinitely, everyone character would in the YchromosomalAdamite dynasty. The House of Windsor, despite being formed in the 20th century, is just as valid of a dynasty as the House of Bourbon. However, the game mechanics really can't cadet branches into account.

 

[Chevaresqye]

Dynasties do not perpetuate indefinitely, but in real life, they form cadet branches. The French royals houses of Valois and Bourbon are cadet branches of the House of Capet, which in turn is a cadet branch of the Robertians. If you extend back the male lines back infinitely, everyone character would in the YchromosomalAdamite dynasty. The House of Windsor, despite being formed in the 20th century, is just as valid of a dynasty as the House of Bourbon. However, the game mechanics really can't cadet branches into account.

Cadet brand is rather not really historical either. House of Valois is simply a convention to call the family who has rule Valois for generation, what ultimately decide succession is the degree for blood relation, not the dynasty name.

It is not that the game cannot handle cadet branches, it is rather the way the game represents dynasty using semi-traditional early-modern convention for medieval era is rather anachronistic. The way that the game make every character belong to single dynasty does not correctly reflect the medieval thinking.

 

[Rags17]

Well, since the Windsors themselves are actually Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, that means that Charles should be a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha... or something like that. ;-)

When tweedle beetles battle it's called a tweedle beetle battle.
And when tweedle beetles battle on a poodle in a bottle and the poodle's eating noodles it's called a tweedle beetle bottle noodle poodle battle.

And when tweedle beetles battle on a poodle in a bottle and the poodle's eating noodles and the noodles are from Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha then we have way to much intermarriage among the aristocracy.

 

[King_of_Spain]

This brings up two interesting questions -

1. Didn't Maria Theresa die in the 18th century ? and
2. Wouldn't Elizabeth have to divorce Philip first, or as the head of the Church of England did she give herself a special dispensation to marry a woman ?

I am so glad someone else immediately thought to make this joke.

 

[Dadoverde]

Petronilla of Aragon married Ramon Berenguer of Barcelona, and was settled that was still the "House of Aragon" by saying that Ramon Berenguer would be said as of her dinasty.
In fact... Petronilla was the last Jimena and Ramon Berenguer of the House of Barcelona, but tradition calls the House of Aragon for Jimenas, Barcelonas and finally, the Trastamaras.

 

[Chevaresqye]

In my village I’m referred to by the name of the farm I grew up on not by my family name. Still in all my documents I have my family name. Naming me by some other name doesn’t give me this name.

Yup, that is why using modern historian patrilineal naming scheme for medieval dynasty does not correctly portray how dynastic relation really worked back in the day. It is better to just let player continue to play as the closest relative regardless dynasty.

 

[Tyler96]

Well, since the Windsors themselves are actually Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, that means that Charles should be a Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha... or something like that. ;-)

Yeah, I'm fond of the fact that there's like half-a-dozen semi-legitimate answers to the question ''What dynasty does Prince Charles belong to?''

There's Windsor, which is a rebranding of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, which is a branch of the Ernestine House of Wettin.

There's Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg, which is a sub-branch of the House of Oldenburg.

And there's Mountbatten, which is an anglicisation of Battenberg, which is a morganatic branch of the House of Hesse-Darmstadt.

 

[Thure]

It is better to just let player continue to play as the closest relative regardless dynasty.

the game is about playing a dynasty. So changing the dynasty ingame would be... ehhh...