Persian Problems

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It were the revolts that really killed me. Looking back, I think the same would have happened if I had gone for India first.

I dont have any recent badboy ratings, but at the start of this episode it was France 37, Persia 14. Persia has been at 19.

The persian badboy rating probably derives from the annexations of Uzbek and Mughal empire. They are about 7 provinces each, and I swallowed them in 1 big bite.

In the epsiode now under play, I am again at war with everyone....

 

[Morlac]

Originally posted by CitizenPaul
It were the revolts that really killed me. Looking back, I think the same would have happened if I had gone for India first.

I dont have any recent badboy ratings, but at the start of this episode it was France 37, Persia 14. Persia has been at 19.

The persian badboy rating probably derives from the annexations of Uzbek and Mughal empire. They are about 7 provinces each, and I swallowed them in 1 big bite.

In the epsiode now under play, I am again at war with everyone....

rereading your post I tend to agree that the revolts are what killed you. I think (others should correct me) that generally it's highest priority to hold onto the former capitals of your conquests, to reduce the risk of their declaring independence. (Though once the government breaks, they'll probably go anyway.)

What kind of force mix are you using in your revolt-killers and how are you retaking lost cities? Some suggestions, if you're not already doing this --

--Don't fortify past level 2 in any of your cities--just makes it harder to retake them quickly.

--Don't appoint tax collectors without careful thought. You might want to wait until nationalism dies down in the province first, so you don't get tax RR + nationalism + religious rr + random event rr

--Use assault waves of infantry to take/retake lvl 1 and 2 castles. When a fresh unit joins an existing combat, the morale of the units is averaged out according to some formula. Since the biggest problem with assaults is that you run out of morale and have to wait forever to recover, use timed waves of infantry. The second wave comes about a week after the first starts the assault, then a third wave a week later, etc. It can help keep the assault going, and IMHO captures castles far more often than sending in an equivalent sized army all in one unit. (Also reduces attrition losses.

You can increase the efficiency of assaults further. If the first fails and you have several stacks of broken units, pick one to continue the siege and move all the rest off to other provinces while you move fresh units in (assuming you have them). That lets you resume the assault much, much faster.

--especially at low tech levels, use lots of cavalry in your rebel killing units. (your mileage may vary, and you may not want to use as much cav in cav-hostile terrain like mountains and swamps)

--keep using your colonists to convert provinces to your (presumably higher-tolerance) state religion. Given the constant rebellions, I wouldn't be surpirsed if some haven't fallen below 5,000 population by now...

I'm going through some of that stuff now in my game -- I've got every religion in the empire, with max intolerance towards one, so those provinces have big revolt risks. Plus there's nationalism everywhere. So I have a fair number of revolts, though not quite so many as you (7-8 a month? ouch!) Also, I'm trying to conquer China, which has Level 4 forts, so I'm rotating in huge infantry stacks to whittle them down faster.

Any idea how long your time of troubles will last, and whether they will keep happening throughout the game?

Good luck and keep posting -- I'm eagerly following your progress!

 

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The reign of Abbas I 1576 - 1629

1613, august. The mameluks declare war on us, despite our royal marriage, and without any cause! Portugal follows suit, and so does mighty Poland. That might not sound troublesome, but Poland has 46000 men in Kujbychew, adjacent to Samara, Kazan, Volgograd and Lugansk. Mysore is also part of their alliance, and joins the rest of the wolf pack.
After an extensive analysis, we decide that victory should be possible. Mameluks have just 1 adjacent province, aleppo. bTheir 46K army will probably erode quickly in the desert, after which we can counter attack and force them to peace. Likewise, we have 2 9000 men armies in former Crimea - Russia, so we might take 2 Polish provinces while they concentrate on 1 of ours. That should give a neutral peace. That leaves Mysore as a victim for partial conquest.
But then disaster strikes as in september Spain declares war. Spain still controls Judea. And while the Spanish diplomat walks out of the court, the Hyderabad embassador walks in, carrying the short message of war. The events really look desparate as in october Oman declares war, followed by Algiers and Turkey. Persia is now at war with all its neighbours except Sibir, RTussia, Crimea and Astrakahan.
Of course all battles in India go astray. Poland is unbeatable, and in summer 1614 the situation is so desparate, that we offer Volgograd and Lugansk for peace. The polish court accepts grudgingly wehn we repeat the offers thrice. Persia takes out 3 warloans, and raises additional troops. In a way we are lucky, as 56000 Oslimans are besieging their rebellious province of Damascus. The fight in the west zigsaws and the Shah feels forced to offer Jordan to Turkey for peace. They accept. That seals the west border with the mameluks - they had an unused 76000 men army defending their capital, but had not yet committed it to the war.

Persian armies conquer Mamelukkan Aleppo, but even after several years we are unable to wristle it from Egypt in a peace treaty. So we finally settle for a blank peace, which unfortunately also brings peace with Mysore. The same holds true fro Judea: although we control it, we are unable to assault any other Spanish provinces and settle for a white peace.

With just 3 enemies left, Mughal empire, Hyderabad and Oman, we finally can make some progress. Oman provinces come down slowly, but we sufer a severe setback as Algerian troops arrive at unexplainable spots in the Persian empire. Several 2:1 attacks to dislodge them fail. We finally settle for a peace with Oman which yield us Al Kharam and Massirah.
1n 620 we sign a very satisfying peace treaty with the Mughdal empire leaving them just their capital, in 1622 followed by a likewise peace treaty with Hyderabad.

Persia again enjoys a short period of peace.

In 1624 Turkey declares war on Hungary, an seeming opportunity we grab in 1626 to DoW on Turkey. The intial war goes well, but Hungary soon accepts rthe loss of territory for peace.

Safi I 1629 -
In a way it is a relief - Abbas had got himself Isolated in Russian Samara. Safi bravely takes command of the Persian armies. The armies have been assembling in Sivas, adn safi leads them into the Anatolian heartlands. Unfortunately, the Turks have been quietly building up a large army there too. They smash Safi's forces and Safi himself is killed as a general - strange enough he survives as .
In 1632 the situation worsens as Russia declares war. In a swift war, the Russians defeat oru Samara army and capture both Kazan and Samara. We cannot take them back, as both are isolated from the rest of the country. Revolts start to get up due to war axhaustion.
Owning 4 turkish provinces, I offer peace for Arabia, but the Osmans refuse. They repeatedly offer Jordan, but finally, in 1632, they offer both Jordan ansd samaria, and an exhausted Persia accepts. At least it offers some sonsolation for the giant waste of resources. Persia offers Kazan to Russia and finally enjoys peace again.

Safi I fell deathly ill while being transported home from his Turkish field operation. Apparently he picked up a strange, life-threatening disease in one of the villages. He was rushed to Isfahan royal Hospital for a complicated operation. He went under the knife in the early morning, and when he awoke, he saw that the curtains were closed around him and it was dark.
"Why are the curtains closed?" the shah asked the Secret Service agent sitting beside his bed. "Is it night already?"
"No, Sir," the agent said. "There is a huge fire across the street and we didn't want you waking up and looking out the window and thinking the operation was unsuccessful."

1635. A backroom in the royal palace.
"Sit down, my beloved grandson. My end has drawn near."
"You have grown wise and old beyond your years, my grandpar?"
"For centuries our family has been the backbone of the Persian throne, my son. I hand this task over to you, as my father loaded the task on my shoulders. Your father died young in an accident, but you have all traditional qualities to succeed.".
"Yes, my gandpa. I know you had monthly discussions with our shah, praised be his name."
"When your time has gone, make your son ask you these questions:"
"How large is our army?"
"How many provinces does Persia have?"
"What was last years national income?"
"What did your life achieve for Persia?"
"We have 34000 infantry, 65000 cavalry and 94 artillery peaces, my son. Persia has 46 provinces. National income last year was nearly 1600 ducats."
The old man fell silent for a while. Then he continued: "Persia has gained 4 provinces. But I failed to steer Persia to greatness. I failed to steer it to peace. I was unable to conquer back some of the rich Indian provinces lost during my fathers life. Russia, one of our old enemies, has reconquered part of what my father gained. I am afraid Samara is also lost."
"How can I steer Persia while the Shah is on the many feathered throne?" the young man asked. The old man grinned.
"My father died just when I asked him the saem question. So did my grandfather. I had to discover myself." He lifted a richely jewelled cup of wine to his old lips. "I asked you here, because no feathered arrow can reach me here. I want to die peacefully. The shah in Shah is obliged to visit us every month and discuss the course of our country, it´s a tradiotional prerogative of our family. I selected you wife for you just for this" He sipped the wine and frooze. He did try to open his mouth, but fell back in his chair, not to move or speak ever again.

Tech levels: 10/5/3/5/6.

 

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Morlac posted some suggestions to whic I havnt yet reacted:

--Don't fortify past level 2 in any of your cities--just makes it harder to retake them quickly.

I prefer to raise the level of the forts to 3 or 4. At those level cities can often withstand rebellions for quit a while, while at L1 or L2 the towns often join the rebels.

--Don't appoint tax collectors without careful thought. You might want to wait until nationalism dies down in the province first, so you don't get tax RR + nationalism + religious rr + random event rr

A good suggestion, thx.

--Use assault waves of infantry to take/retake lvl 1 and 2 castles. When a fresh unit joins an existing combat, the morale of the units is averaged out according to some formula. Since the biggest problem with assaults is that you run out of morale and have to wait forever to recover, use timed waves of infantry. The second wave comes about a week after the first starts the assault, then a third wave a week later, etc. It can help keep the assault going, and IMHO captures castles far more often than sending in an equivalent sized army all in one unit. (Also reduces attrition losses.

Nice trick, though I am usually short of troops. Will try it though.

--You can increase the efficiency of assaults further. If the first fails and you have several stacks of broken units, pick one to continue the siege and move all the rest off to other provinces while you move fresh units in (assuming you have them). That lets you resume the assault much, much faster.

How do you get all those troops in the first place?

--especially at low tech levels, use lots of cavalry in your rebel killing units. (your mileage may vary, and you may not want to use as much cav in cav-hostile terrain like mountains and swamps)

Imho cav is most useful in the early stages of the game. At higher tech levels, Cav stacks are often at least partly demoralized before they get into melee.

--keep using your colonists to convert provinces to your (presumably higher-tolerance) state religion. Given the constant rebellions, I wouldn't be surpirsed if some haven't fallen below 5,000 population by now...

I am always on the lookout for such situations!

--I'm going through some of that stuff now in my game -- I've got every religion in the empire, with maxintolerance towards one, so those provinces have big revolt risks. Plus there's nationalism everywhere.

Every religion ??? That should give horrible revolt risk!

--So I have a fair number of revolts, though not quite so many as you (7-8 a month? ouch!) Also, I'm trying to conquer China, which has Level 4 forts, so I'm rotating in huge infantry stacks to whittle them down faster.

--Any idea how long your time of troubles will last, and whether they will keep happening throughout the game?

I dont know. I have hadd two such periods now. I have no idea if they are preprogrammed into the save files, or appear at random. The first wave was somehow easier than the second, but perhaps it was the combination of war and religious strife during the second wave which made it so much harder.

 

[Morlac]

• Is there really a difference in how often the garrison joins the revolt based on size of fortification? I'm running an informal test now -- raised a 10% RR province to level 3 and am comparing to similar level 1 and 2 provinces...
  
• Re: manpower and assaults, yes it does require a certain size to your armies to begin with. It's not a trick for low manpower nations. But you can do it quite profitably against level 1 and 2 forts with as "little" as 35-50k of infantry. As my discussions elsewhere have said, it's a matter of exchanging one valuable commodity (manpower) for another (time). If you don't need the time, don't waste the manpower...
  
  And note that consciously going with an assault heavy strategy means that most of the troops you do buy will be the very cheapest (infantry). I use cavalry and cannon for very specific and limited tasks, never for assaults--and as a result I tend to take lower casualties in those unit types. And what cannon I do have can often be used to siege a castle to soften it up prior to an assault. (Just move the cannon away from the castle right before you assault!)
  
• I think you and I said the same thing about cavalry -- except that you phrased it as "early in the game" and I said it as "low tech levels". Hey -- if you're playing some minor pagan country, low tech is right on through the end of the game...
  
• Yes, having every religion gives you nasty revolts. I have them evenly spread among catholic, protestant, reform, and muslim, giving me an offset of between -2 and -3 each. I have maximum intolerance for Orthodox, which gives me about a +10 revolt risk there. The -2 is just enough to offset 2 years of war exhaustion or a -2 drop in stability (which I thankfully haven't had) if I am at +3 Stability, with tax collector and judge.
  
  All my orthodox provinces are in a near-constant state of revolt, and I have been using the tricks described in other threads to maximize the population loss from revolts so as to get them under 5000 and convertible).

Thanks for addressing my questions!!!

Originally posted by CitizenPaul
Morlac posted some suggestions to whic I havnt yet reacted:

--Don't fortify past level 2 in any of your cities--just makes it harder to retake them quickly.

I prefer to raise the level of the forts to 3 or 4. At those level cities can often withstand rebellions for quit a while, while at L1 or L2 the towns often join the rebels.

--You can increase the efficiency of assaults further. If the first fails and you have several stacks of broken units, pick one to continue the siege and move all the rest off to other provinces while you move fresh units in (assuming you have them). That lets you resume the assault much, much faster.

How do you get all those troops in the first place?

--especially at low tech levels, use lots of cavalry in your rebel killing units. (your mileage may vary, and you may not want to use as much cav in cav-hostile terrain like mountains and swamps)

Imho cav is most useful in the early stages of the game. At higher tech levels, Cav stacks are often at least partly demoralized before they get into melee.

--I'm going through some of that stuff now in my game -- I've got every religion in the empire, with maxintolerance towards one, so those provinces have big revolt risks. Plus there's nationalism everywhere.

Every religion ??? That should give horrible revolt risk!

--Any idea how long your time of troubles will last, and whether they will keep happening throughout the game?

I dont know. I have hadd two such periods now. I have no idea if they are preprogrammed into the save files, or appear at random. The first wave was somehow easier than the second, but perhaps it was the combination of war and religious strife during the second wave which made it so much harder.

 

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Safi I 1629 - 1642. (cont'd)
============================
Some time is spent to rebuild the trade position in Delhi.
In 1638, the Memeluks declare war. The Mameluks? My first reaction is: but we dont border them... But then I realize we do: Aleppo is still owned by the Egyptians. The main centers of army rebuilding are along the Turkish border and in India, so the Turkish border army is sent into Aleppo. The city falls due to normal siege after about a year.

Knowing we have a tough time to get any other terrain, the Mameluks refuse to give up Aleppo. So we start to build a fleet. In 1642, Algiers declares war. With Algiers, Turkey and Morocco come into play. Suddenly we no longer need our expensive fleet, as Turkish controlled Sinai becomes accessable. On the funny side, The Mameluks cannot pass Sinai, as they are not in alliance with the Turks.

My first reaction is one of surprise, as the Turks seem unprepared. That changes when a 50K army turns up, throws me out of Angora and out of Sivas. I loose about 30K troops in the process. But I manage to grab Syria.

Abbas II 1642 - 1666
===============
The Turks defeat all our armies at 1 :3 odds. Understandable, as the Persian investments always have flown into infrastructure and not in the army. Having heard rumours that wars can be won quickly by storming, Persia takes out 2 warloans, raises extra troops, mainly infantry, and merges these new troops with the cavalry remnants of the beaten armies. The Turks meanwhile take Jordan and Georgia and reconquer Syria. We storm Damascus with 22000 foot, 11000 cav and 10 guns and dont even reach the walls. No casualties among the 20000 defenders, and only 15000 foot and 5000 horse left. The storming of Georgia with 22000 infantry also lacks success: 5000 defenders beat the attackers back. 16000 men resume the siege.
Kouban falls to the Turks and they control 3 provinces. Their offer for Kouban and Jordan is serious. I take undefended Damman from them with a 3rd bankloan.
I retake Syria with 30000 men, but am defeated by 5000 Turks. Grrrrrrrrrr!
When Algiers in 1644 offers peace for 5 ducats, I accept. Persia is in great debt, is lagging behind military, and has no hope on rapid conquests.
These 5d bring general peace to Persia. Persia is in ruins, many provinces smolder. Rumours reach us from far away that Spain annexes an unknown people called Azteces, and then declares war on a people called Inca's. These too are incorperated into the Spanish empire. In the East, China's government is broken by rebels.
With Samara for ever rebel controlled, I choose royal marriages with our enemies the Mameluks as the target. Impossible, but at least it doesnt cost too many VPs.

In 1649, the Mameluks declare war on Spain. Arabia declares itself independant from Turkey and the Hedjaz. Ukraine declares itself independant from Poland. We invite them into a an alliance but they are soon annexed by all powerful Poland.
In 1652 we discover how to organzie logistics, and our brave armies declare courageous enough to explore unknown territories. Everything east of Agra is unknown, so we join some existing armies and send them into those territories.
In 1653, the war between Spain and the Mameluks ends with Spain acquiring Allepo.
1654 brings us to infrastructure 7, central government.
1660 sees a war of Turkey vs Aden, Ethiopia and Nubia. With a CB on Aden, Persia declares war. The intention is to use the fleet we built for the attack on Nubia against Aden. Aden attacks first, and with 3000 men destroys our 7000 men garrison in Masirah. We counter with a landing in Hadramut, and storm the walls only to be beaten back. We are attacked, survive, reinforce and storm again. Nubian landings in Jordan can easily be repulsed. We march on to Aden itself. We can not storm the town with our 12000 men, as 18000 Aden soldiers are adjacent in Yemen.

In 1663, the Mughal empire declares war. Mughal has just 1 province, which admittedly is certainbly worth having.
The Mughal problem is the easiest problem to solve: for purposes like these we have 70000 men in the area. Twice we storm the walls, the second time the walls are broken and the rebelious state is made into a free province of the persian empire. After their taking I invite the Mughals emperor for a dinner. I tactfully inquire about the mans mental heatlh - how did he get around to declare war - one province against the Persian empire? From his answer, I deduce he suffered from schizophreny, believing he was also emperor of the several other empires. In fact he frankly admittes this. But he also reassures me:
"I use to be schizophrenic, but now we have been treated."

Soon, die to incessant attacks from Yemen, the Aden army falls below the 10000 men needed to siege it. Only the next year, in 1664, can we reinforce it.
1664 also brings a DoW from Spain. Spain controls Aleppo and Judea, and we immediatly enter them with the armies deployed against a possible Turkish attack. These provinces are conquered within one and a half year, but Spain refuses to give up at least one province in exchange for peace.
We finally attempt to storm Aden, after several gruelling years of siege, and capture it. Aden has retaken Hadramut, and raised new troops. We await them and prepare them a bloody welcome home.

Suleiman I 1666 -
============================
Another monarch without abilities. Actually, his abilities are so minimal his father must have forgotten to pay the boys brain bill.
In 1667, Spain finally is willing to give up Judea. This gives us a mediterranean harbour. But Aden makes an incredible come back and defeats our main army, and starts to siege Aden itself again. Our rescue army of 9000 infantry is defeated by 1900 Adeners.
We reinforce, land in Hadramut, and break their siege. Turkey has grabbed Yemen. Troubled by new rebellions, I settle peace for Hadramut and Afars.
That leaves Aden itself for annexation by Turkey, but fortunately they accept Yemen and do not entirely annex it.
The next few years are quiet. Saving money allows us to build a naval equipment factory in Elbruz. This doubles the speed of our naval development.

From 1675 on, we recruit 10000 men each year in India. Mysore has over 70000 men at arms in the border provinces alone, while we did with 30000 from former wars and rebel crushing. In 1680, we reach level 8 infrastructure, manufactories. I start recruiting near the Crimean/Georgian border. The minimal fortresses in this region get promoted.
Abroad, in 1683, Turkey finally accepts peace with Nubia, Nubia sighs under the Turkish boot.

In 1686, we declare war on Oman. I expected DoW followed by Crimea, Georgia and Mysore - but they do not. It seems Oman stepped out of the alliance just before I DoW. Our armies march into Dhufar and Mascate, while the Oman army marches into Persian Masirah. Mascate falls first, taken by assault. An assault on Dhufar fails despite reinforcements. Masirah falls, and new reinforcements from the mainland arrive in Dhufar. These troops carry the day as Dhufat falls too. But I cannot annex... What's wrong? Closer inspection reveals that Oman does not just have a small trade post in east africa. They also control Zanzibar. So on to Zanzibar! 9000 men land, and fail to storm the town. 5000 men are left. Another 9000 men follow by naval transport. But this transport looses 2 men of war due to attrition, and is intercepted as the men are disembarking. The 1 Oman warship sends our transports fleeing.
Time to rebuild - 3 warships this time. The new fleet is defeated too, but takes long enough to land another 8000 men. In February 1691, Zanzibar falls and we annex the small state of Oman.

Two camels pass through the desert. A very aged man and a very young man.
While riding at a gentle trot, the old man said:
"My dear great grandson, the welfare of Persia has been the burden of our family for centuries. I have born this responsibility for too many decades. I now hand it too you. Ask me what I achieved in life".
"What did you achive in your life?"
"Persia has grown from 46 provinces to 53. Its income has risen from 1600 ducats to 2100. The army is in excellent shape and has 248000 foot, 36000 horse and 158 guns."
"Is there anything you regret?" the young man asked.
"The war with the Mameluks and Turkey was forced upon us. Though we did not loose any land, I regret it very much. Nothing was gained, and a great number of lives was lost. Allthough nothing in comparison, a great number of lives was sacrificed to no avail."
"Is there any advice you can give me?"
"Beware. Both my grandfather and his ancestors have been murdered when they transfered their repsonsibilities to their children. That's why I have asked you to come ride with me in the desert. The monthly meeting with the shah is our hold on the peaccokc throne. Never ascend it, don't even think of it. It belongs to the Safayids, not to us. Come, let's have a drink at that oasis over there."
"Who was responsible?"
"For the killings? I don't know, but I guess the Shah. And the weaker the Shah, the more treacherous he will act. This Shah is very weak."
They arrived at the oasis and rode towards a small group of Arabs, where they halted their hedsjan. The sheik of the Arabs greeted them:
"'Aleikum! Who are you? May we ask for your names?"
"Es selam aleikum!" the old man returned the greeting in full, using the arab language. "We are Mirza Yughal and Mirza Muammed, and having a short ride. If you allow us a drink at the bir, we won't disturb you for long."
"May Allah grant you a good trip, have your drink, and return in peace".
The two man cried "Rheee!", and the camels sank down. The young man helped the old one to get off. When they bowed down to drink, the arabs suddenly lifted their guns and shot them both. They congratulated each other and raced towards the large capital whose minarets could be seen just over the horizon.

 

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[Morlac]

Ouch!

CitizenPaul--

Sorry your assaults didn't go well the first time out. I feel responsible, since I've been advocating them.

A couple of thoughts--

(a) Never assault with cavalry. They don't participate in the assault (ie they don't add any offensive power) but they will take casualties. The *only* time I will ever assault with cavalry is in the odd situation where I absolutely must take a town on that assault and the only reinforcements I can throw in to get the assaulter's morale back up are cavalry.

(b) Don't assault Level 4+ fortifications (which it seems Damascus had) unless you are willing to spend a lot of money and bleed unrelentingly. Assaults work best at the extremes of fortification, sieges work better in the middle. You'll see what I mean when my AAR gets up to the China years and poor General Spinola makes it his life's work to take their lands by assault... It can be done, but not in low supply/high attrition areas. Ideally you need a decent general and something like 75-80k infantry assaulting in a wave (40k/20k/20k, for example, waves timed about a week or more apart so that each comes in as the morale of the previous batch has fallen).

(c) Did you really take 6000 casualties in the assault on Georgia? (22k down to 16k...) Was that including attrition? I wouldn't expect that kind of disparity in casualties unless attrition was also happening or you were at a major tech disadvantage. Were you sending the assaulting armies in waves, or as a single unit?

Note that with a slight tech edge and no morale advantage, I would tend to commit 30k infantry to an assault on a minimal (level 1) fort as a wave of 22k and 8k, and would generally expect to succeed most of the time (7 or 8 in 10?). With a single wave of 22k and a slight tech disadvantage, I can't say that I'd expect to win. At a guess, I'd say my odds would be 4 in 10?

By the way -- for some reason, the Omani are extremely fond of Zanzibar -- I think they colonize it most games.

 

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Persia
======

Two women sit on a bench in a walled garden. A young girl played on the ground with a doll as richly dressed as the girl herself.
"My dear daughter, the fate of our family has always been to ensure the welfare of Persia, whoever sits on the peacock throne."
"I know, my dear mother. That's why your father and my husband had their monthly talks with the Shah. But now both are dead, killed by the same Arabs - on instigation of you know whom I mean."
The two women called each other mother and daughter, but from the difference in age and looks it was clear they were not. One was in her seventies, the other barely twenty.
The older continued:
"Through ages the males have carries this burden. Now there is no heir left to carry this responsibility. I wonder if Persia is up to its challenges without our family being the backbone behind the peacock throne."
"What?" asked the younger one "Makes you suppose that Persia has to do without the support of our family?"
"We have no males left in our families!"
"Did not Artemisia alone give Xerxes the right advice not to go for a naval battle against the Greeks? Did our friends, the Mughals, not have queens?" asked the young woman.
"We would be helping the murderers of our husbands!" the older woman protested.
The young woman sighed.
"In a way, yes. And I still mourn Ahmet every day. But the family, I understood, never supported the Shah, it supported Persia. And to support Persia, it's Shah must have wise advice. And I believe I can give consult."
"But will he come?" the old one asked doubtfully.
"I will make him come." She looked lovingly at the young girl crawling around. "I want her to have a safe future. At the moment Persia has a large army, but is technologically behind her enemies. Also, Persia waits too long and is attacked by her enemies when they are ready. Persia must learn to strike first".
The old one protested: "We are woman - we are peaceful!"
The young one shook her head: "Not peaceful - we talk better, use our charms - in decency - and do not let our emtions reign us. When violence is necessary, we use it. Look at Jean d'Arc, look at Artemisia, look at countless others."

Suleiman I 1666 - 1694. (cont'd).
=================================
After the conquest of Oman, we expand the army for 1 year.
In 1692, Sibir declares war. Badboy rating Persia = 8. (Spain has 14). The 4000 men in Orenburg defeat several assaults before they are forced to retreat. Meanwhile I raise new troops in the neighbourhood, 19000 men, which storm Irgiz but in vain.
1693 brings new money and thus fresh troops. Reinforcements from Isfahan bolster morale.
In september we capture the first province, Irgitz. The next target is its neighbour province of Orsk, and storming this town fails too. In december morale has recovered, we storm again and 4000 men remain dead on the field, while a 1000 defenders defend the remnants of the walls. In april 1693 Orsk falls, with the help of the 1694 levies. The combined armies move on to Tenghiz.

Sultan Husain 1694-
=======================
Another guy of whom may be said: if he had another brain, it would be lonely.
But Luck is on his side, his generals take Tenghiz. The army marches on to Kustanai, and looses another 5000 men when it tries in vain to storm the town. A second attempt fails too, and of the 17000 men just 4000 survive. Frost reduces the army even further, and the troops leave the province!
With the 1695 levies we try again - and surprise, this time they take the town! At a terrible cost though - barely 13000 survive.
The sibirs accept peace in exchange for Irgiz, Orsk and Kustanai.
A succesful war, though not the one we wanted.

While Persia is busy in this area, I want to solve another long standing problem. Samara is the only "keeping" mission I ever get. However, after the last unsuccesful war against Poland, the region is isolated and in revolt. So the best I can do is settle for a royal marriage with the mameluks, which costs me 1 vp per 5 years instead of netting me 20. I declare war on Astrakahan.
That brings Poland into play, but Poland is also engaged elsewhere, having been in a long war against Saxony and Sweden.

Persia has large armies on the border with Turkey and poised against Crimea and Georgia. Persia declares war on Astrakahan, which alas brings also Poland into play. The first targets are Volgograd, which is stormed twice before it falls. Astrakahan withstands 3 assaults, the last one by 70000 men, before a year later it falls due to normal siege.
The Poles didnt do nothing, they took Samara, our main gold supply.
In May 1697, we recapture Samara, followed in November by Uralsk. Astrakahn offers Uralsk for peace, and I accept. Control over Samara has been restored, so we can earn normal victory points again.

1698.
We spend 2 years upgading the army along the Crimean - Georgian border.
Then I still dont feel strong enough to assault them, even though they are at war with Turkey. So I declare war on lonely Hyderabad. This town has minimal defences, and a small army of just a 1000 men. Declaring war on this costs us a drop in stability, as the people start questioning declaring war on a small nation that hasnt done a thing against us.
But when after a year and 15000 dead the nation is annnexed, stability rises again.

1703 brings us a new manufactory in cloth center Hamad.
The following years enjoy a long peace. The army along the Crimean/Georgian border is reinforced. But above all: colonists are flowing in again. So we start colonies in Allahabad and Santal. Alas the netherlands starts a trade post in Patna, just in between.

1707: Naples declares war on Crimea. Crimea/Venice/Portugal/Knights/Mysore was already at war with Turkey/Teutonic/Prussia/Brandenburg. It was also at war England and Sicily. And with Sweden. Now Naples brings its allies Austria/Spain/Savoy.
Only a month later, Spain declares war on Prussia, which brings out a war between Spain/Austria/Savoy/Naples and Turkey/Brandenburg/Hanze/Teutonic.
To complicate the picture, Poland/Astrakahan/Denmark/Nippon/China/Knights is in a war with Austria/Naples/Savoy/Naples.

For the Indian subcontinent, this means that Mysore conquers all 7 English trade posts.

In december, we declare war on Crimea. Georgia and the Knights forsake their alliance, but Mysore, Portugal and Venice honour their obligations. Quickly we occupy Azow by storm, and follow it up by storming Kalmuk. In India, 45000 men storm Bangalore. The 5000 defenders are quickly reduced to a weak 107, who heroesly hold out against 42000 Persian foot, making 5000 more casualties in the process.
February brings an unexpected visit from the Russian embassador, who carelessly hands a DoW. Well we still have 19000 men on Orenburg, and 16000 in Samara.
March sees the caputure of Kalmuk. In India, 274 defenders disuade 27000 Persians from attack. In August, the Mysore capital falls. Persia receives Bombay, Decca and Bangalore for peace. After 2 centuries, some old mistakes have finally been at least partly repaired.
This peace allows Persia to concentrate on the North and West frontiers. A few days later, Crimea offers its two occupied territories for peace. We accept, as Russia is pressing us hard. Venice and Portugal are, for the most, too far away to conquer anything from.
Russia has taken the opportunity to defeat the 35000 men in Samara and is besieging that town. 22000 of our men escaped to Uralsk.
As an added insult, miniature Sibir declares war. (Checking my badboy rating, I find it unexplainable high at 15. I always understood that Indian provinces didnt count, unless I annexed them? I am sure I annexed just 1 province non european states).
The 23000 men army in Uralsk is attacked by 17000 Russians, who defeat them. just a 1000 make it back to Orenburg. The Russians storm Samara twice and take it in december. They march on to Uralsk where they completely annihilate the remnants of our army.
Frankly, I don't understand. Persian armies have superior tech to the Russians. Still, they defeat us again and again. They do have 1 very frustrating advantage: a leader, something Persia is sorely lacking. Frustrated, I offer them 250 gold in january, which they accept. That leaves Sibir for the taking.
The 1710 budget allows us to raise new troops, and with bthese reinforcements we take Tenghiz. Sibir has taken Orsk and is besieging Kustanai.
These Sibir guys have a really good sense of humour. When we defeat an army in their capital, they offer 60d and ... Orsk - which belonged to them decades ago, but not at the start of this war. We go on to assault their capital, and they offer Thengiz for peace.

From the diary of a lady of the ruling classes.
"Today I had the monthly discussion with the Shah. He has always been a very distrustful person, very cautious, and likely to pounce at very very faint sign of treason, real or imagined. He had brought his son, a bright guy, who alas showed more interest in my daughter than in the political discussion I had with the Shah.
The Sibirs have offered us Thengiz for peace. The Shah wants to pursue and annex their entire state. I pointed out the danger of an assault by all our neighbours, but he laughed it away. I suspect he was drunk - an old family weakness in our ruling dynasty. He wants to pursue the war at all costs. He says our gold offer to Russia must be compensated for somehow. Perhaps the near unbroken string of our victories has made him careless."

The next few years see peaceful expansion of our Indian colonies. Allahanad develops into a real town of over a 1000 inhabitants. Abroad, Europe is still at war. But all countries seem highly impressed with our recent military achievements. Despite our awful reputation abroad, they leave us at peace. This is much better than what Persia might have hoped for. But not all is well. In the east, there used to be a small kingdom. Traders report that the chinese now rule this area. This means the chinese have numerous troops, and have grown very powerful.

From the diary of a lady of the ruling classes.
"Today I instructed my daughter in the secrets of our monthly meetings with the Shah. I had her ask me the age old questions which belong to this ritual:
What did you achive in your life for Persia? How many armies does it have? What was last years income?
I had the answers ready:
Persia has grown from 53 to 66 provinces. Its army has 125000 foot, 17000 horse and 71 guns. That is just half of the 248000 foot, 36000 horse and 158 guns in the times of my gandfather. Last years income has risen from 2100 to 3000. As tradition demanded, she asked if there was anything I regretted. I replied that Persia had suffered many casualties. Over the centuries, Persia has lost a million men due to combat, and slightly more due to attrition. Over 800 guns have been lost, usually in combat. Those numbers worry me. Most of them date from before my period, but even in my days many died."

 

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Morlac,

don't feel guilty about the assault advice - since I am at the office now, I lack the time for a lenthy reply, but I hope the episode above shows your advice did pay off!

 

[Morlac]

Glad to see you've become such a superpower!

• Why is Russia smacking me around when I have a higher tech level?
  
  Russian generals--even the generic ones--have higher ratings than yours do. In the most recent IGC, they have Move 2, Fire 0, Shock 2, Siege 0. Persia is only 1/0/1/0. That means they take less attrition and do better in the shock phase of battle.
  
  Also, minor differences in tech usually don't matter much. There are several "threshold levels" where your combat abilities increase dramatically, but if the difference in your abilities doesn't encompass one of those thresholds your advantage can be minimal or almost nothing.
  
  You also mentioned a Russian historical general. There are several Russian leaders around in 1707, all of whom are pretty strong--a typical one (Golitsyn) has
  movement = 3
  fire = 3
  shock = 4
  siege = 1
  
  That's basically good enough to wipe the floor with a 1/0/1/0 generic leader!
  
  Finally, most of those cold-weather nations (the Horde, Russia, Astrakhan) build very cavalry intensive armies. Takes advantage of their shock phase bonus, helps them get where they're going faster (taking less attrition), and most of the terrain they fight in will be open so they take few penalties. Most importantly though, it accounts for your tremendous losses -- once your army retreats/reaches the panic stage, enemy cavalry can continue to harass them and inflict shock phase damage. Combined with a strong enemy leader, this can result in total annihilation for your forces once they break.
  
• Are you assaulting with waves of troops or single units? Especially in the Sibir war, it seems like your assaults were failing too often. (Though I now wonder whether the zero fire value of your leaders is hurting you in the assaults. Spain's generic leaders--who I based my findings on-- are 1/1/2/0, which probably means they have better odds in an assault...)
  
• Re: badboy value
  
  I'm not sure what happened there, as it doesn't match what had been posted in Huszics FAQ, and I usually rely on his explanations. I had a similar problem in my Spanish AAR though, after doing a lot of land grabs in what I thought were "safe" ways.
  
  Don't forget, though, that you do get 1 BB point each time you DOW a European power. That means you got BB for DOWing Crimea and Astrakhan.

Keep up this AAR! I'm very interested in your progress--you've done fantastic so far...

 

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I cannt remember exactly, but I think it was against Sibir, Crimea and Mysore that I used waved assaults. Sometimes 2, sometimes 3 waves.
Astrakahan certainly was.

Persia indeed has awful generals. The Russians had a named leader, didnt write down his name. I suppose it were mainly his qualities that killed me. His name was not one I was familiar with. Not Golitsyn. I do remember he had 3 and 4 atributes. And if that guy already wiped the floor with me, I am not looking forward to Suvorov towards the end of 1700's.
Suvorov is one of the few really famous Russian generals, and I heard his name is still cited in the Russian military schools as a prime example of Russian generalship. He hardly ever lost a battle since he had gained independant command, though he died dishonoured when on his return the Tsar discovered Sovorov had abolished the official army drll book. Only the english ambssador was present at his funeral. But that's digressing (though I find history a most fascinating subject, and my campaigns stimulate me to do some history research on the countries and periods).

My forces lined up against Russia were mainly infantry with some artillery. Meant for storming cities. I simply was not prepared for large battles. Which is what I got. At least one Russian army consisted fully of cavalry. I had supposed that at my current tech (about 20) my fire power would be enough to drop cavalry morale before they got into action. Especially since I always had the defence. But the Russian cavalry got virtually undamaged into melee, probably due to the Russian generals capacities.

Where can I find the tech levels which really make a difference?

The badboy rating is what bothers me most. It was at 15 before I annexed Sibir. My latest move was to annex siir, which boosted it to 22. I understand that. What I dont understand is, according to Huszics faq (which of course I read too), how I got at 15.

 

[Morlac]

I like the tech tables at EUProvince for an understanding of what different tech levels give you.

If I read the land chart correctly, here's a few early key points:

• morale increases at levels 1,2,3, 8, 12, 20, 29, 36, and 43
  
• Cavalry doesn't get better at all (except in morale) until level 15, and even after that only gets better rather slowly
  
• Infantry gets its first (pathetic) firepower at level 5--before that you have no fire phase (unless you've got cannon along, I suppose) at all.
  
• After gradual small improvements, infantry stays essentially unchanged (again except for morale) from level 13 until you hit level level 22. According to the historical estimates, that's about a 45 year period!

That last one is probably part of what killed you. Your level 20 infantry could just as well have been lvl 13 in terms of damage output. Anyway, fire and shock phases do alternate relatively quickly. Unless the russian cavalry were already broken, I can't see you being able to panic them before they got a shock phase...

When facing enemy generals, it's almost always better to let them besiege one of your provinces rather than meet them in the field, I think. Especially in the frozen north, they'll take lots more attrition losses than you'd be able to inflict in combat. And when fighting mostly cavalry armies, you have the added bonus that their cav is useless in an assault!

Still don't know what to tell you about the BB values. It seems clear to me that at least in the latest patch+IGC, things don't work exactly as they did in Huszics faq. It really seems like sometimes annexing a "heathen" costs you the full 5+1/province and sometimes just the 0+1/prov.

 

[unmerged(8545)]

Russia and Persia at that time had only a tiny border.

The Russians attacked, I could choose between withdraw or defend in place. Ther was no way aroun them.
So there is no point letting besiege my provinces and win them one by one. I cannt win a war by loosing provinces slowly.

With my remark about infantry demoralizing cavlry I meant that cvalry seems less effective when their morale drops. I hoped that my fire power phase would let the enemy morale drop 1 or 2 levels, so that in the melee phase the cavalry would be less effective.
But due to the russian general I fought at something like 8-4 vs 0.
That didnt produce much result. Then came the shock phase, and they fought at 9 vs 2-4.

But in the most recent war vs Russia everything went very smooth - read the next installment.

Thx for passing on those levels!

 

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Sultan Husain 1694-1722 (Cont'd)
=================================
1714. Life is simple as a cavalry army is raised in Georgia, and Sibir mayors enjoy promotion to governor.

In 1716, the long wars break up the Spanish government. Helvetia and Wurtemberg declare themselves independant of their former oppressors. In the new world, a new Spain declares itself independant. Its shapes look remarkably like the former Aztec empire.
Austria annexes Crimea.
A colonization attempt in Manira fails. The next year the attempt is rewarded with more luck and after a few more years the colony is promoted to a colonial city. (Level 7).

All investsment go into military research, and the military technology advances every year. Persia saves money for a Naval equipment manufactory.
But this peaceful interlope is shredded when in 1718 Poland declares war. At that moment our land tech is Regimental organization (30), above Russia, Turkey and slightly above Poland, but still way below Spain, France, England and some other western countries.
Rapid conquest by storming minimal and small defences brings control of Volgograd, Kujbyschew and Bogutjar. Russia seizes the opportunity to declare war, something entired Persia expected. Russia always declares war, just as an unknown race called Kzinti seems to do.
The Poles siege Azov but abandon it. Controlling 3 Polish provinces we nevertheles get just ****. The Poles refuse our modest offer of Volgograd for peace. The Polish armies march on in mid winter to Vorones, storm this in spring, and take it after loosing too many Persian lives. But this fourth province force the Poles to think about a serious peace negatiation, and they accept the loss of Volgograd and Kujbyschew.
That leaves Russia as an opponent. Saratow looks like the easiest province, but it takes an extremely bloody action to storm it. Meanwhile a smaller force sieges the medium fortress of Kazan. It takes till July 1720 till this falls by normal siege. The Russians offer Saratow for peace, and Persia accepts. 3 new provinces to deal with revolts is enough. The cash reserves from 5 years of peace have melted away, and so has the Persian army on the breaches of Polish and Russian city walls and in the winter tents surrounding Saratow and Kazan.
The most remarkable difference with the previous Russian war is the lack of large battles. Russia did not seem to have had any decent army corps at the start of the war, and the largest force she succeeded in bringing together was about 11000 men.

1722 brings that unthinkable dream: a Persian leader. Fath Ali Khan is a decent general who can actually comamnd an army without giving up a battle before it begins. He may not be a genius like some of the Russian generals we confronted, but at least he doesnt act according to text books which were probably archaic by the times of Alexander the Great.

Tahmasp II (1722-
========================
From the diary of a noble lady.
"Today I received our new Shah for the first time. Tahmasp behaved very kind, and we started of very well. He comes from the north east, and his ancestors can trace a straight line from the original mongol rulers. His Persian is fluent, and the Persian culture has long spread to his native area, so he may be considered a Persian by behaviour if not by birth.
He no doubt is a talented man. He ascended the throne after the sudden death of Shah Husain. He regards is at his specialty to unite people, and to combat all signs of civil war. (Note: His specialties are civil war and indecisiveness. I dont know what influence the latter has on the game).
I remarked that some of the mullahs seem to have been preaching rebellious interpretations of the Quran, and that I hoped he would not need this talent. He answered that he certainly wanted to study the subject and follow its developments. I asked if he intended to do something about it. He looked shocked: certainly we must not take the wrong actions, he replied. We must study, he said, before we can take action"

After his visit, I had my daughter ask me the age old questions. I replied:
Persia has grown to 70 provinces. Last years income was 2880. The army has 89000 infantry, 25000 cavalry and 93 guns, a shadow of the powerful war machine my grandfather had let Persia built up.
Persias losses over all time are now 1.68 million foot, 646 thousand horse and 822 guns.

(Persia enjoys new waves of religious strife - every month revolt risk increases by 3%).

 

[Morlac]

Excellent progress. Glad to see how much better this Russian war went for you. And I hope that you will be able to put your new leader to good use soon. Maybe you should think about moving east instead of west--less nationalism...

Glad that you found the tech info useful. If you haven't already, download those tables from EUprovince--they're very good.

It seems like you're ignoring the Siberian corridor. Any reason for that? You could be doing quite a bit of exploration with small (expendable) units.

Keep posting!

 

[unmerged(8545)]

Excellent progress. Glad to see how much better this Russian war went for you. And I hope that you will be able to put your new leader to good use soon. Maybe you should think about moving east instead of west--less nationalism...

Moving east is the idea. But as I have no CB on them, I declared war on Crimea. That brought me provinces both east and west.
After that, I dont had any real enemies east. But due to my bb rating, western nations like Russia and Poland keep attacking me. When someone attacks me, I beat them up (in games). Even when it would be more advantageous to by them off and head east. So me main expansion has been north. Not where I wanted to go.

It seems like you're ignoring the Siberian corridor. Any reason for that? You could be doing quite a bit of exploration with small (expendable) units.

I simpy dont have the settlers to follow up. Persia enjoys short periods in which she receives 1 colonist/year.
At the moment all development sliders are 0 execpt land tech. I might switch to navy in order to build a shipyard. From this forum I understood that gives me extra colonists.
By navy tech is around 10. Land tech just went up above 30.
In a way it's funny you mention this. Just tonightwhile I wa smaking up the diary part of the report I was thinking about exploring the Siberian corridor, as perhaps some vp might be obtained that way.
Spain has 3200, Persia 2600. So I still have some task before me.

 

[Morlac]

Originally posted by CitizenPaul


Moving east is the idea. But as I have no CB on them, I declared war on Crimea. That brought me provinces both east and west.
After that, I dont had any real enemies east. But due to my bb rating, western nations like Russia and Poland keep attacking me. When someone attacks me, I beat them up (in games). Even when it would be more advantageous to by them off and head east. So me main expansion has been north. Not where I wanted to go.



I simpy dont have the settlers to follow up. Persia enjoys short periods in which she receives 1 colonist/year.
At the moment all development sliders are 0 execpt land tech. I might switch to navy in order to build a shipyard. From this forum I understood that gives me extra colonists.
By navy tech is around 10. Land tech just went up above 30.
In a way it's funny you mention this. Just tonightwhile I wa smaking up the diary part of the report I was thinking about exploring the Siberian corridor, as perhaps some vp might be obtained that way.
Spain has 3200, Persia 2600. So I still have some task before me.

I'm not clear from the first part of your answer whether it was part of the in-game goals or fiction to attack back against russia/poland etc or whether you just got carried away. If it's part of your AAR to do so, please continue. But otherwise, buy them off and head east!

By the way, depending on who exactly remains to your east, you might be able to get them to ally with some of your enemies by trading maps. (If your CB enemies will even trade with you!) I've had really weird AI alliances come out of maps getting floated around Europe -- like the Papal States and Mysore... I would NOT recommend doing that if you are making significant money on trade from COTs that other nations don't know about. Not worth the risk!

About the siberian corridor and colonists...

Yes, you definitely get VP for exploring, so that's worth it. Also, even if you only get a few colonists, it can be worth it to lay down a few colonies. (But if you do, you might want to station an infantry unit or two to protect against native revolts...)

If your naval tech is only 10 I can't see you getting up to 16 (needed for shipyards) very soon unless you throw everything you have into it. (And you are already in the early 1700s...) Unless you're already maxed out in Trade and Infra, I don't see it being worthwhile just for shipyards. It's not like you are building navies anyway.

You might want to consider taking an existing shipyard, however. You could annex Venice or Portugal, or take Andalusia from Spain -- each of which might be difficult, admittedly. But it would still be easier and faster than trying to build your own.

 

[unmerged(8545)]

I'm not clear from the first part of your answer whether it was part of the in-game goals or fiction to attack back against russia/poland etc or whether you just got carried away. If it's part of your AAR to do so, please continue. But otherwise, buy them off and head east!

What I meant is that I personally have a psychological problem with paying of someone who attacks me. When I buy of someone who attacks me, I feel like rewarding his unprovoked agression.

About the siberian corridor and colonists...
Yes, you definitely get VP for exploring, so that's worth it.

Reading your reaction I realize that I did not express myself very clearly. I do know that exploring terra incognita gives some vps.
But some territories give an extra bonus. Amazon and Hudson bay come to mind as examples - in some games I got a message saying I got extra VPs when I discovered these. I hoped that there would be an extra bonus somewhere in Siberia.

(by now got none for the first 10 or so provinces)

 

[Morlac]

Originally posted by CitizenPaul


What I meant is that I personally have a psychological problem with paying of someone who attacks me. When I buy of someone who attacks me, I feel like rewarding his unprovoked agression.


...I hoped that there would be an extra bonus somewhere in Siberia.

(by now got none for the first 10 or so provinces)

Sorry -- I should've realized that's what you meant. I feel that way too, especially since I was having to do it so often in the first several rounds of BB wars. You'll see what happens eventually when I too lose my temper with them...

And re: Siberia I don't think that there is a bonus, though I can't be 100% sure -- I'm pretty sure though, having done it once as France in the GC.