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DavidYung

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Hmmm… when we are at false arguments…

Actually, Shahnama is praised very well beyond just Persian nationalist circles. Perhaps because it’s one of the biggest epics of the time unparalleled across the Islamic world. It is praised also as expression of “Persian revival” – a period when local dynasties took power back from Arabic conquerors. Again, not just by nationalists, but also by historians studying the period. Among other reasons also as amazing source of contemporary culture.

It is also praised by linguists as a work, which has defined “New Persian” language as it evolved after Persia was incorporated into the Caliphate, and after it was heavily influenced by Arabic. Persians did not adopt Arabic language as their own language, although for 2 centuries Arabic became the language of the government. On the other hand, one should not ignore the fact that it was Persian political and governmental tradition which took over the Caliphate with the Abbasid revolution… and actually quite a few Arabic political/governmental terms are loanwords from old Persian, so the influence definitely went in just one direction.

Of course claiming that Persians weren’t in no way influenced by Arabs is a false claim, but it is equally false trying to deny it by claiming that Persians totally adopted Arabic language (which does read as they ceased to use their own, although a man of your erudition probably couldn't have meant it that way). It’s like saying that Germans, Hungarians or English stopped speaking their languages, because all written official records in some period were in Latin.

Oh, I didn't know it read like that!

I was only aiming to respond to the anti-Arab (maybe anti-Muslim) nationalist fervor behind the argument (and various other arguments put on the forums recently). I know that the Shahnameh is a major work for various reasons, but here I only pointed to claims made by Persian nationalists which I found ironic and contradictory as the work is, indeed, a hallmark of Persian revival which does indicate that there was a 'low' period for Persian before it.

As for the ''adoption'', I did not mean to say it replaced Persian at every level and in every way. How else could someone like Ferdowsi even come about and become as important as he did become if there was no Persian base to fall back on? I am sure Salman al-Farsi used Persian when he got back home and that not all the relations between Persians and Arabs were as universally caustic as the poster suggested. I admit, it was rather sloppy wording aimed more at that particular comment and others like it that express that kind of revisionist slant - I did not mean to give an impression that all of Iran turned Arab over night and stayed that way for two centuries or that there weren't instances of persecution for that matter (in case I get hit on that now). Simply put, Arab culture did have a major impact on Iran that was especially felt at the levels of knowledge production and governance (which for CK are probably important).

Most crucially, as I tried to imply by naming the Shahnameh, is the attempt by the author to counter the dominance of Arabic in the region by trying to produce an incredibly long work trying to avoid Arabic loanwords as much as possible.
 
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Nochin

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@elvain The cultural change in that sequence is absolutely correct. I mentioned this on another topic, but it didn't attract much attention. It is most logical for Seljuks and Muslim Turks to switch to Turkmen culture. Historically, Muslim Turks were called Turkmen.
 
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Skales

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Four pages just for a colour change... God, I hate love this community.

In all seriousness tho, what exactly is the issue? Considering as of currently, the Middle East is just all Green, there is nothing exactly damaging about changing the colour of Persia to something else, even if it pleases just a handful of people, it should not really hurt anyone?

That is unless we are talking about the people who are just looking for excuses to argue about something, of which there seem to be many on this forum.
 
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Tschobo

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Four pages just for a colour change... God, I hate love this community.

In all seriousness tho, what exactly is the issue? Considering as of currently, the Middle East is just all Green, there is nothing exactly damaging about changing the colour of Persia to something else, even if it pleases just a handful of people, it should not really hurt anyone?

That is unless we are talking about the people who are just looking for excuses to argue about something, of which there seem to be many on this forum.

It is a discussion. People tend to bring up their things. This has nothing to do arguing about something. It is just a proposal to make Persia blue and the different takes on that. Yes it has not a huge gameplay-effect, but it would be nice to have it.
 
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Can someone make de jure Persia Persian Blue and post it here as a preview?

(I, for one, would very much like a break from the sea of greens. Sky-blue or turquoise Seljuks would be an added bonus for anyone with the know-how.)
 
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Aquamancer

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Can someone make de jure Persia Persian Blue and post it here as a preview?

(I, for one, would very much like a break from the sea of greens. Sky-blue or turquoise Seljuks would be an added bonus for anyone with the know-how.)

Sure. Here's kingdoms of Persia & Makran and duchies within them, as well as empire-tier Persias recoloured blue, with light blue and dark blue variants available for Persian Empire. I tried turquoise, but it didn't work too well in my opinion.

Persian Empire Dark Blue.png

Persian Empire Light Blue.png

Persian Kingdoms.png

Persian Duchies.png
 
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fredrikslicer

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That would not make sense for this time period
Wouldn't it? elvain explained the situation with the seljuq empire and they were hardly the only ones. The khitan worked in a similar fashion as did the lithuanians and the franks etc. It was I dare say rather common. To be more specific about my proposal.

Court culture (primary culturegroup) makes the ruler view the culture of that group as being of the same group but not the same culture.
 

Shahanshah Rober

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Sure. Here's kingdoms of Persia & Makran and duchies within them, as well as empire-tier Persias recoloured blue, with light blue and dark blue variants available for Persian Empire. I tried turquoise, but it didn't work too well in my opinion.

View attachment 585722
View attachment 585723
View attachment 585724
View attachment 585725
Exactly, this makes my pp hard, and I agree with you about turquoise, turquoise is turkic and more like Göktürkic, it would make no sense, it is persia so let's just make it national colour of persia. Turks can have their nice turquoise colour but this is persia after all.
 
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Tschobo

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elvain

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(I, for one, would very much like a break from the sea of greens. Sky-blue or turquoise Seljuks would be an added bonus for anyone with the know-how.)
Large part of Persia actually already is blue... and it isn't in a sea af green.. but yea having the empire blue looks better.
As for kingdoms, I think that various kingdoms can have different colours within an empire, just look at Britain of France... so I think it won't be too bad if some are blue and some green.
But Persia propper would look better in blue, like Khorasan or the Caspian kingdom
 
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Large part of Persia actually already is blue... and it isn't in a sea af green.. but yea having the empire blue looks better.
As for kingdoms, I think that various kingdoms can have different colours within an empire, just look at Britain of France... so I think it won't be too bad if some are blue and some green.
But Persia propper would look better in blue, like Khorasan or the Caspian kingdom
I was more thinking about CK2 when I was typing that actually (IIRC only Daylam was blue back then).
 

Tschobo

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Large part of Persia actually already is blue... and it isn't in a sea af green.. but yea having the empire blue looks better.
As for kingdoms, I think that various kingdoms can have different colours within an empire, just look at Britain of France... so I think it won't be too bad if some are blue and some green.
But Persia propper would look better in blue, like Khorasan or the Caspian kingdom

Maybe we could have Makran keep the original colour. But for the Kingdom Persia I would also want a blue one. The duchies and counties could have a bit more variance of course.

It was nice and important that they changed the colours of the Maghreb region. That was long overdue. But I still have my stand that the Persia should be a different colour than Arabia, and in the best case blue.
 
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Volga Bolghar

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The Sultans and much of the dynasty became culturaly Persian - as @Shahanshah Rober correctly points out, they spoke Persian, dressed Persian, were inspired by Persian culture, legal and political traditions, their advisors and viziers were in 99% Persians.
I dont think you and your friend have any knowledgable about Seljuk history

They never spoke(at least first language) persian,never dressed Persian nor inspired by Persian culture or tradition etc

If you claim Seljuks spoke Persian instead Turkish,you must give source about that(ı can sure,you cant)

You said their viziers and advisors are persian
That actualy true,but thing is burecracy not only about viziers
Seljuks abolished most of former İranian/Arab Emirs and instead put their Turkish Ghulams(Actualy Ghaznevids too did this)
I can even say %99 of Seljuk emirs was Turk origin
So your ''persian dominate bureocracy'' go to trash

You said,they dress persian
Sorry bro,but its rubbish
As you can see,they just didnt care ''persian dress'' and keep dress central asian style
seljuksss.jpg
seljukssss2.jpg
seljuks3333333.jpg
 
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