Permanent revolt risk in Nippon still exists in 1.05

[unmerged(3931)]

As reported in an earlier (now closed) thread:

I believe that permanent province revolt risk is unintended and should be considered a bug in the Nippon event file (major_nip.txt). Permanent revolt risk can happen for Nippon in two ways. The first way is the most harmful. A player who chooses not to get involved in the Hatakeyama Family infighting by choosing 6936C and also not to choose sides in the Onin War by choosing 6939C ends up with a province revolt risk of 30 in Kansai. These are perfectly reasonable choices by the way. Only 20 of the revolt risk can ever be removed by events 6942 and 6943. To fix the problem, event 6943 should remove 25 of the revolt risk instead of just 15.

The second cause for permanent revolt risk is in choosing to expel Christians in Tokugawa's Edict of Expulsion by choosing the first choice of the relevant event (either 3878A or 3879A). A revolt risk of 10 or 20 occurs in Kyushu. The only way the revolt risk is eliminated is by event 3880 (Policy of Sakoku Implemented). The problem is that 3880 is triggered only if Yalu or Kyongju are not owned by Nippon. A human player is very likely to own both provinces by that time and would have to vassalize Korea and retake the provinces as a possible work-around. The fix for this problem is more complicated as it involves the creation of a new event or removing the trigger. The game designers would have to decide this one.

6936C #Infighting in the Hatakeyama family#
#Don't get involved#
6939C #The Onin War#
#Don't choose sides#
province_revoltrisk which = 686 value = 30 # Kansai #

6942 #The Onin War cools down#
province_revoltrisk which = 686 value = -5

6943 #The Onin War ends#
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 686 value = -15}
#### replace with #####
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 686 value = -25}

#####################################

3878A #Tokugawa's Edict of Expulsion#
#Christianity Has No Place in the Land of the Gods#
province_revoltrisk which = 688 value = 10 # Kyushu #

3879A #Tokugawa's Edict of Expulsion#
#Christianity Has No Place in the Land of the Gods#
province_revoltrisk which = 688 value = 20

3880 #Policy of Sakoku Implemented#
trigger = {
atwar = no
NOT = {
owned = { province = 641 data = -1 } # Yalu #
owned = { province = 642 data = -1 } # Kyongju #
}
province_revoltrisk which = 688 value = -20

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Due to the size of the 1.05 patch it has taken me some time to make arrangements to get the patch off the Web. Once I got the new version, I performed a file comparision. There are no changes to the major_nip.txt file between version 1.04 to 1.05. This means the bugs I reported earlier are in fact not fixed.

The response about the bugs was unsatisfactory to beign with. There was no response to the second cause of permanent revolt risk that I cited, that having to do with Christian influence in Kyushu. As to the first cause of permanent revolt risk, the Onin War, I understand the person working on the event files said the revolt risk in Kansai "should" disappear around 1590, I surmise due to "The Great Sword Hunt." Please understand my frustration for being so easily dismissed. Instead of guessing about what "should" happen, why not look closely at the event file?

Had the person carefully re-examined the event file he would have found that event 6914, "The Great Sowrd Hunt" of 1588, has absolutely no influence on revolt risk in Kansai. Perhaps he is thinking about the earlier related event 6922, "Oda has taken Capital" of 1568. Yes, that does remove the required amount of revolt risk but these two events (6922 and 6914) are obviously intended as solutions to the revolt risk introduced by event 6945, "Ise Shinkuro takes Odawara Castle" in 1495. Actually 6922 and 6914 are not likely to happen because 6946 or 6948 would occur prior to 6922; but that depends on province ownerships. In terms of revolt risk, the end result is the same regardless of what path is taken to remove the revolt risk. Only the dates and the new capital are different.

Because province revolt risk is additive, the residual 10 province revolt risk is added to the new 10 revolt risk introduced by event 6945 (Odawara Castle). Then, there is a province revolt risk of 20 in Kansai. After event 6922 (Oda) happens, there is still a residual revolt risk of 10. The 10 revolt risk lasts until the end of the game; it is in fact permanent as I have stated before.

That is unless event 6945 (Odawara) does not happen to add in 10 more revolt risk. Event 6945 can only be prevent from happening by the loss of the Kanto province prior to 1495. Is it intended that all the 6945 (Odawara) revolt risk can be avoided by losing one province? That seems to be the best way to solve the revolt risk situation between 1495 to 1588.

Regardless, the C choices for Hatakeyama and Onin War events can and do often lead to permanent revolt risk in Kansai. Only players who read this, or examine the event files as I do, would know to intentionally lose ownership of Kanto prior to 1495. And many players would regard that as "exploiting", as if Nippon must have revolts no matter what you do.

Please pass along these comments as well as my initial post to whomever may be working on the event files this time around. Your attention to this matter is appreciated.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Oh yeah... when I opened with this login ID, I had only one concern, that was to find out where I was supposed to get the ws2_32.dll file. So that is why I chose the winsock 2 name. And I have been unable to start a new account because I use public access type computers. So I'm stuck with this lame login name; but I'm glad to have it. Otherwise, I'd be just another lurker.

 

[Aetius]

Ok to be clear. I don't like the permanent revolt risk in Kyushu because I find entirely unrealistic that the Japanese would convert to christianity. I have nothing to do with the event either so what I think doesn't matter. However when it comes to the second of the two, if there is a problem it is probably my fault.

On the Kansai revolt risk the revolt risk should be reduced to 0 after the great sword hunt, or at least after Sekigahara. If this doesn't happen then the bug remains in 1.05. The reason for this problem is that the events chains previously involved far more events and were more convoluted, but the amount of events was cut down (e.g. mirror events for the Onin war that took care of the different revolt levels given by the different alternatives), so some things were obviously missed. This is only an explanation from my side and I have admittedly haven't managed to get through a perfect chain through the patch process.
My answer to AndrewT was that the residual revolt risk is intended until the 1590's. So if there is a way to get a permanent revoltrisk by making the "wrong" choices it is definately an oversight. So if you have any good fix suggestions that achieve the same instability in Kansai given the choices without adding additional events it would be nice if you could post them....

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Thanks for the direct reply. I too have noticed the convoluted event file for Nippon. Much of the mess seems to stem from the fact that there is no time constraint for province revolt risk. Province revolt risk has to be cancelled by another event.

About the permanent Kyushu revolt, it doesn't happen if the province is allowed to convert to Christianity. It is when you try to prevent it turning Christian is when you get the province revolt risk. From your response, it wasn't clear if you thought it was the other way around. The way the revolt risk becomes permanent is that it is not cancelled if Nippon does not become a closed country. Nippon is prevented from becoming closed if Yalu and Kyongju are both owned. In an historical sense, what does the ownership of Yalu and Kyongju have to do with Nippon becoming closed? The AI is unlikely to own both the spaces and a human player could own half the world by that time. Is there some reason that Nippon would not become closed had Korea been fully conquered by that time, regardless of ownership of other provinces?

To make sure the Kyushu province revolt risk is removed, make sure that Nippon becomes closed if the Christian edicts are issued. Remove the trigger of Yalu and Kyongju ownership from event 3880.

As far as the province revolt risk in Kansai, you could put a line of code that reduces the province revolt risk in Kansai by 10 in any event or event path that you choose. Province revolt risk is additive but the result is always non-negative so it doesn't matter if there is no province revolt risk at the time due to some other path being taken. It might seem a bit odd to be told of a -10 province revolt risk in Kansai when there is no revolt risk there but there are already lots of ways that type of thing can happen in the event paths anyway.

Is there a reason that you want the revolt risk to disappear around 1590? The permanent province revolt risk is due to the Onin War not to the taking of Odawara Castle. You want there to be an "Onin War has ended" event message but have the Onin War continue in Kansai? Do you want the Onin War revolt to continue even after the Odawara Castle matter has been resolved in a way other than The Great Sword Hunt?

What I'm asking is, is it that the Onin War province revolt risk should possibly not be fully eliminated until around 1590 or is it that it should not be fully eliminated until the Odawara Castle matter is settled by whatever path? In the latter case all the revolt risk could be removed by 1544, I think. I don't have the file here right now. Tell me what you want and I can post some specific solutions.

But hey, are the bugs at least posted in the record of known bugs. Even if this never gets fixed, it should at least be recorded.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

I'm just letting you know I'm checking in from time to time. I don't really want to think about this bug right now anyway. When someone replies, maybe I can help then.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Okay, what's going on? Please at least tell me that you have logged this bug. Thanks.

 

[Aetius]

Is there a reason that you want the revolt risk to disappear around 1590?
I can't remember the details at the moment, but the anarchy in Kansai continued after the Onin war, with several coups by the different factions, the conflict within the city ended with Oda's conquest, but raids continued from Buddhist monk bandits. There were also several ongoing Ikkis in the area until after the end of Oda's life, I don't have my books at the moment but Toyotomi put down an Ikko-Ikki in 1580. The natural thing at the time was to have an end at the time of the Sword Hunt.

Could you please put your corrections in an easy to cut and paste version? I will take a look at them and we can try and discuss a solution.

I could log a bug if you really want me to, but the Paradox people are too overworked at the moment to do anything about it. So it just you and me and the rest of the forum

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by ws2_32

About the permanent Kyushu revolt, it doesn't happen if the province is allowed to convert to Christianity. It is when you try to prevent it turning Christian is when you get the province revolt risk. From your response, it wasn't clear if you thought it was the other way around. The way the revolt risk becomes permanent is that it is not cancelled if Nippon does not become a closed country. Nippon is prevented from becoming closed if Yalu and Kyongju are both owned. In an historical sense, what does the ownership of Yalu and Kyongju have to do with Nippon becoming closed? The AI is unlikely to own both the spaces and a human player could own half the world by that time. Is there some reason that Nippon would not become closed had Korea been fully conquered by that time, regardless of ownership of other provinces?

I didn't write the event, and I find it rather unrealistic. I think changing the revolt risk to a strong revolt (3 revolts perhaps?)instead after these choices would be better than the current solution. The Yalu and Kyongju triggers I believe were put in as a check if the Japanese can conceivably go "insular" I have nothing to do with this event either. If we simply remove the province revolt risk and replace it with "the mother of all rebellions" then the problem is solved, isn't it? I don't want to mess with events or remove triggers if it can be avoided.

Originally posted by ws2_32

As far as the province revolt risk in Kansai, you could put a line of code that reduces the province revolt risk in Kansai by 10 in any event or event path that you choose. Province revolt risk is additive but the result is always non-negative so it doesn't matter if there is no province revolt risk at the time due to some other path being taken. It might seem a bit odd to be told of a -10 province revolt risk in Kansai when there is no revolt risk there but there are already lots of ways that type of thing can happen in the event paths anyway.

Yes, agreed... So you want to put in the Odawara Castle event?

 

[unmerged(3931)]

That sounds reasonable on both counts. It's your call of course. I don't care much; I don't play Nippon. I'm just trying to help by bringing it to your attention.

 

[Aetius]

OK thanks for your hard work... I'll see what can get changed...