Performance since the patch has rendered the game unplayable

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Riftwalker

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I wouldn't really call what I experienced for 'stutters', though, as it seemed more like an inabilty of the screenupdate routine to be able to paint fast enough. No problems on paused, so it would lend credence to the theories about code being performed between screen updates.

as a programmer, i just really need to put this out.

Yes, the game ALWAYS tries to run "code" between screen updates.

the Typical Run loop of any given program is "-> update(update gamestates, move things, calculate stuff, etc) -> output (display stuff to the user) -> input (check to see if the user has given any input) -> repeat"

Directx games are even more typical since all screen refreshing happens more or less the same way. your computer has 2 screen buffers, and will be either updating one and displaying the other. a Display monitor will ALWAYS refresh itself on it's refresh rate (30/60/144 fps are common), it will simply take the "displayed" buffer each time. IF vsync isn't enabled, the program will attempt to share screens even before a full render is complete.

paradox games are CPU intensive, and not graphically intensive, so it's almost inconceivable that the stutter is from a rendering issue.

even the UI slow downs are from the CPU side of things since it's "checking" on all the UI assets.

basically, the game is going "i haven't finished crunching the numbers, so i haven't even gotten to the part of the code where i tell the GPU what to render" and so it just sits there for a half a second or so.

MOST games are graphically intense and so low FPS or stutters are from the CPU basically doing several cycles behind the scenes as the GPU simply displays whatever the CPU is giving it the next time it's finished rendering. low FPS is simply the game being unable to render in these cases, quick enough for the CPU.
 

alexti

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Since some people seem to be fine and others don't it can't just be the game, there have to be some other factors. The game are not utilizing multiple cores too efficiently but it does do alright in my computer and I play with maps that has stars greater than the biggest vanilla maps.
From my observation the big factor is the game state. I had games where the performance was decent and games where it was atrocious. Same player, same hardware. In one game performance went from decent to horrible in a few months. It was around 2300 and I've decided to attack fallen empire, they have started reaching me via wormholes and performance completely tanked. Calling it a lag would be an understatement - I would hit space and had to wait few seconds before the game paused.
 

Tech Noir Synth

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I just did a test with suprising results. I started a game with gateways set to 0 and wormholes to 0,5x. It's past 2400 already during a war in heaven, there are no active gateways at all - game lags much less! It's still there but playable.

This seems to be the biggest issue. I quit a game recently at 2437 because the stuttering was unbearable. Of course performance got progressively worse as expected, but I ended up building 4 extra gateways for the achievement and overall fleet management which destroyed my performance. I was playing on standart settings, medium galaxy, 11 AI +2 Marauder + 2 FE and only some graphic mods to keep achievements an option.

In a new game I set gateways and wormholes to 0,25, left the rest of the settings the same. I have still not tried any mods, but already I notice a huge increase in performance. So for now you should hold off on building too many gateways.
 

strayth

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Backing up what Riftwalker posted (with certainly less professional expertise) - if the slowdown I'm experiencing were graphical, it'd probably express noticeable stuttering when a graphically-intensive encounter unfolded. In this game it'd be most likely during an enormous, particle effect-intensive battle. That's not the case, and the stuttering doesn't even seem to favor map mode versus solar system view.

It's late-game, and the likely culprit sounds like trade routes / wormholes. I doubt computations on high populations lean heavily on the game's logic (though I could be wrong). Trade route pathing logic does likely rely on branching algorithms though, which could get out of hand quickly.

I toughed it out to 2528 or so, but I'm finally calling it. By the end, I would literally just have to pause to make commands, then unpause, much like a turn-based game. The Prethoryn Scourge isn't purging correctly (wasn't this working before?), the L-Cluster is still taking its piece of performance out on ticks (I even avoided opening the gate myself, to avoid this) and the AI empires aren't even rebuilding their lost territories from the L-Cluster aggression after almost 100 years.

I really hope they do address these issues, as they're ruining an otherwise very fun game.
 

lordsval

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I've never posted on the PDX forums before but these performance problems have gone from terrible to worse with 2.2. Apologies for the rant.

I just called quits on a game I was playing. Year was 2449, playing on 2.2.2. I quit not because it was taking 0.6-0.8 seconds to run a day's worth of time (under good/normal circumstances) but instead the insane amount of fps drops while running the game on literally any speed. 5-20 fps on my i7-7700k overclocked to 5ghz (a system I specifically built to play Stellaris as optimally as possible 18 months ago knowing the limitations of the game) is just crazy. Can't even operate the user interface. Might have even been able to stomach the day calculation slowdowns if the fps wasn't in such a sorry state. I have no idea how you guys have the time to get to 2500+ or see the end-game crises in this patch. (also have a 1080Ti but that's not really relevant here)

The game was a 200 star galaxy but yes I did have 35 planets with total 2100 pop. I had installed Glavius AI mod and the which was working quite well to give me a challenge until the lag came on. The last 30-50 years of gameplay saw the rise of mass gateway construction so perhaps the pathing calculations did have a hand in it. I had also installed the !TPRPF mod which attempts to stop the trade route calculation frequency but I guess it does nothing for gateway pathing.

Well, I'm pretty disappointed, although I gotta say I was expecting another 2-3 months development time for Le Guin... I've been hoping for serious work on the performance issues since launch and it seems PDX have little interest in making this otherwise magnificent game actually finishable. Reminds me of Master of Orion 3 taking several minutes to calculate a turn in mid-late game - not that I properly finished a single real game of that either.
 

SpectralShade

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Reminds me of Master of Orion 3 taking several minutes to calculate a turn in mid-late game - not that I properly finished a single real game of that either.

hmm.... that's odd.

It's been a long time since I played that game, but I remember completing it alot of times (albeit not as many times as MoO2) trying out different combinatinos of species traits. I remember alot of problems with that game because it too was a rushed unfinished release, but I can't seem to remember lag being one of them. It's been a while, though, so of course my memory could be failing me on that detail.
 

lordsval

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hmm.... that's odd.

It's been a long time since I played that game, but I remember completing it alot of times (albeit not as many times as MoO2) trying out different combinatinos of species traits. I remember alot of problems with that game because it too was a rushed unfinished release, but I can't seem to remember lag being one of them. It's been a while, though, so of course my memory could be failing me on that detail.

Really? I find that very surprising. MoO2 games usually ran maximum of 6 hours for me even with all the micro. Like a game of Civ5 on "quick" for a modern reference. The end turn click was basically instantaneous and there were no loading/wait screens. MoO3 on the other hand had these enormously long wait screens in between each turn including a screen for each of the multiple combat phases.

Although I totally concur that MoO3 was incredibly rushed and unfinished. That was before the days of continuous patching (dare I say "software as a service" even), too, so it was never going to get better...
 

SpectralShade

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Really? I find that very surprising. MoO2 games usually ran maximum of 6 hours for me even with all the micro. Like a game of Civ5 on "quick" for a modern reference. The end turn click was basically instantaneous and there were no loading/wait screens. MoO3 on the other hand had these enormously long wait screens in between each turn including a screen for each of the multiple combat phases.

Although I totally concur that MoO3 was incredibly rushed and unfinished. That was before the days of continuous patching (dare I say "software as a service" even), too, so it was never going to get better...

i actually got the MoO3 box on a shelf here not too far away. I'm tempted to install it now just to see if it was my memory being bad in that regard :p
 

ShaTiK

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Well, after making a new game with Large galaxy and 18 AI's, wormholes and gateways on default - the game still severly slows down around 2300s. It is still playable, but not enjoyable. Which is a terrible situation, because fun just began - and now I basically have to abandon this game and start new one.
With Glavius AI mod performance got better, I'm sure if I tried to run the same galaxy on vanilla the slowdown would happen a lot earlier, plus AI empires would be these empty shells. But still, this is damn shame 2.2 was rushed. The patch is quite nice, but the QA was absent..
 

lordsval

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i actually got the MoO3 box on a shelf here not too far away. I'm tempted to install it now just to see if it was my memory being bad in that regard :p

The game was from before a time when the x86 single core performance increases had stopped. It's fairly likely you'll get better performance now. I certainly didn't have a very good cpu at the time either.

Well, after making a new game with Large galaxy and 18 AI's, wormholes and gateways on default - the game still severly slows down around 2300s. It is still playable, but not enjoyable. Which is a terrible situation, because fun just began - and now I basically have to abandon this game and start new one.
With Glavius AI mod performance got better, I'm sure if I tried to run the same galaxy on vanilla the slowdown would happen a lot earlier, plus AI empires would be these empty shells. But still, this is damn shame 2.2 was rushed. The patch is quite nice, but the QA was absent..

I don't know what their supposed QA actually did for this patch and I quite frankly doubt Paradox actually has this role in their development process. I apologise if that sounds harsh but either the issues players have are straight up ignored and swept under the rug for later or they're never found in the first place. I don't have any experience with Paradox outside of Stellaris so I cannot say which is more likely.
 

Duuk

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Sadly, it's not the Steam overlay. At least not in my case. Disabling it changes nothing.
Could you do me a big favour and try out the savegame attached to this comment? That would be really great. Please enable the frametime graph by entering "3dstats" in the game's console while doing so.
Thanks alot!
Ok, for the sake of the "Am I missing something huge?" I downloaded your save and ran it.

A month at speed 3 took about 24 seconds, there is a distinct pause at the 1st of the month and again (predictably and nearly uniformly) at around the 20th. I watched about 4-5 months without touching anything to be sure.

So, I retract my earlier statements of "it's all in your head, bro" because with your save it was a noticeable slowdown for me, too.

Now, the question becomes more akin to "what should our expectations be for a good sized, fully painted map with huge fleets at mid-game trying to run at maximum speed?" and I don't have an answer for you, because my PC specs are well, well above the recommended line (and I'm sure yours are, too).

So move my vote from "It's fine, suck it up" to "Ok, maybe some optimization isn't a terrible idea."
 

CosmoHalcyon

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Here are some of my observations from testing various 2.2 saves in the past on what probably causes lag for some and less for others
  • Difficulty level. I don't see a lot of Grand Admirals but I do see a lot of Commodores and below. Lots of ensign level difficulties. The AI is going to be doing a lot less - particularly at ensign. They will not have painted the entire galaxy by the time lategame hits. The AI empires' fleet strength by a short time before 2400 is often below 10k for each individual empire. Sometimes even as low as 5k at the ensign level. They just bide their time and wait for the endgame rapture with their heads contentedly buried in sand. So I think it is worth asking those that claim no stuttering to state their difficulty level assuming they don't kindly provide their save.
  • Population count and species variety almost certainly factors in this. Most of these saves have a smallish population compared to what I have played with (1,000 or less versus 2,500+) and whats more is that they don't have a lot of species variety as I see a lot of xenophobic player empires (1 or two species within their borders whereas I have a smorgasboard of the entire galaxy). I enjoy diversity in this game but the daily ticks might not.
  • Nobody seems to like 5x hyperlanes
  • Games with federations lag more than games without them. I've seen it mentioned here before that a xenophobic galaxy performs better than a xenophile-filled one because there are less repetitive, redundant, and rudimentary diplomatic interactions between AI empires. I think they're right.
Some takeaways from this as far as I am concerned are as follows. The AI that manages player stuff might take into account the different traits from different species as they find ideal jobs within the player empire. Or, perhaps, it's simply the sheer variety of species that the AI has to account for and has nothing to do with finding ideal trait placement. This may be the single greatest source of lag as 2.2 introduced the job systems and we've already seen from a patch that the devs are aware that the architecture they have in place is less than ideal for their new feature set. I have previously identified that fallen empires can reduce new game performance by at least 10% simply by existing with their fully furnished and populated planets so this would further point to this premise. Start a new game for yourself both with and without fallen empires and you will see the difference between daily ticks. I would hate to adopt a playstyle that prevents me from abusing the lovely refugees welcome policy but perhaps it may be best from a performance standpoint. A lobotomized on top of an already brain-dead AI that manages AI empires uses considerably less per-tick resources because they are doing less (sorry to be captain... er... ensign? obvious there) so perhaps a new question that players should ask those claiming to have stutter free gameplay is to query the difficulty level. I personally think that people are overstating the amount that the new trade system adds to the daily ticks when you compare it to the population system consumption of cpu resources. It's certainly true that AI pathfinding has caused stuttering both in the past and now, but I sincerely think it's to a lesser extent than people realize. I have tried that new mod that claims to alleviate trade lag (and I believe that it might, sure) but it did not do so much for me. I also have a mod that eliminates piracy for the most part so right there are two mods that theoretically should alleviate trade-based daily calculations and yet my daily ticks are still atrocious by mid game because I have a) so many people, b) so many different types of people, and c) the highest possible difficulty setting with a mod that increases difficulty scaling beyond the standard.
 

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I've been running a few test games with different parameters to see what affects performance the most. I can confirm that the same stuttering occurs in games with 0x wormholes and gateways and with only machine empires (no trade) as the game progresses, although not as early as when wormholes/gateways or trade are present in the galaxy. Performance is improved with glavius AI enabled from the beginning but as total pops in the galaxy increase to 10,000 or so performance eventually deteriorates anyways.
 

jaerv

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So a running game is going to take a while to show a performance benefit. Once the AI gets the planets moved over to what the mod is looking for they'll start costing less. What happens is a "perfect" planet no longer checks for new buildings to build, no longer checks to move pops, and no longer does a number of other checks. It instead checks for a much more simple things such as the planet having a missing pop, building in need of upgrade, and the like.

Running one from the start has a performance benefit throughout in that the mod AI builds what it needs to and then stops checking the planet until the planet has unemployment.

If you are going to let it run overnight I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison video between the mod and the vanilla performance. It would be nice to see how far they get in 1 or 2 hours of running.

Alright, here are my findings after I've run an observer game for quite some time now with your mod enabled. Game version 2.2.3, Stellaris_Test version of the mod, large galaxy with default settings.

The good:
In early to mid game I definitely saw some overall performance improvements. Compared to the other games I've run without the mod (same galaxy settings) the days ticked by noticeably faster. Good job!

The bad:
The changes you've made don't seem to prevent the usual late game lag and constant stuttering I've suffered from since the Le Guin update. Once the game hit the year 2400, performance went downhill quickly. I had to call it quits in 2418, as the game became pretty much unplayable on my machine at this point (constant freezes, ui becoming unresponsive, etc.). Calculating a month takes 55 seconds (!!!) on the fastest speed setting, which means it would take me roughly another 15 hours to reach the default victory year of 2500...
Disabling the mod doesn't seem to make much of a difference performancewise at this point, so making a comparison video wouldn't be of much use, sorry.

I've attached the latest savegame to this comment. Anyone who wants a good laugh or who still believes that the game runs fine on his machine, feel free to give it a try.
And no, the abysmal performance isn't due to Glavius's AI mod. I've had the performance of unmodded games tank equally as bad.

Ok, for the sake of the "Am I missing something huge?" I downloaded your save and ran it.

A month at speed 3 took about 24 seconds, there is a distinct pause at the 1st of the month and again (predictably and nearly uniformly) at around the 20th. I watched about 4-5 months without touching anything to be sure.

So, I retract my earlier statements of "it's all in your head, bro" because with your save it was a noticeable slowdown for me, too.

Now, the question becomes more akin to "what should our expectations be for a good sized, fully painted map with huge fleets at mid-game trying to run at maximum speed?" and I don't have an answer for you, because my PC specs are well, well above the recommended line (and I'm sure yours are, too).

So move my vote from "It's fine, suck it up" to "Ok, maybe some optimization isn't a terrible idea."

Thanks for testing out my savegame.
I'm glad we're all on the same page now and are able to agree that the game needs some serious performance tweaks.

As to your question regarding what our expectations should be: I expect to be able to reach the victory year of a game on default settings with a pc that by far outperforms the recommended specs. It's as easy as that. Currently, I'm not.

Of course, a certain slowdown is to be expected the further the game progresses. I'm fine with that and that's not what I'm talking about. But right now the game becomes unplayable at some point in late game. The reason you haven't experienced this yet is probably because you're usually quitting your games after 150 years, as you said yourself in an earlier post.
 

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ArmChairAttila

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Well I just want to put this out here. I too have had the abismal post 2400 lag. I have been using any combinations I can think of, no wormholes and gateways, small galaxies, ect... I am in the middle of a game right now that is using the combination of Glavius Bigger Planets Beta AI, Bigger Planets, small galaxy, max # AI, 2 FE, 2 Marauder, GA, max hyperlane, otherwise default settings. I am now close to the 2400 year and the lag is already noticeably better. I am not sure what has made this game way better than all the others. It could be the max hyperlanes or the new combination of mods. I will update you on the progress of this game.
 

Amyntas

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I wanted to jump in -- I purchased Megacorp two days ago and I've been very excited with the new population changes and such, but i'm not even to 2300 yet and it's become UTTERLY unplayable.

This is unacceptable and I feel kinda ripped off. I have given tons of money to paradox over the years. I don't want to return the dlc because I have enjoyed it a great deal in the early game, but now I have to abandon a save file that I was rather enjoying just when it was actually getting fun.

I have an extremely well-equipped computer. I run 2018 hi-res games with no problem regularly. This level of performance should not be possible. It's infuriating.
 

Duuk

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As to your question regarding what our expectations should be: I expect to be able to reach the victory year of a game on default settings with a pc that by far outperforms the recommended specs. It's as easy as that.

I guess that's my question. What's the "victory year" and map size that the game should be expected to run well on? Because I'm also wondering if Paradox didn't make a mistake on galaxy sizes. 1000-star galaxies with 300 year grand campaigns with 30 empires under the new 2.2.3 mechanics would be a tedious amount of micromanagement AND would likely bog down an NSA supercomputer and 3 cooperative players trying to play them.

The problem though is Paradox has already shipped the game with 1000 star galaxies as a supported option and 2500 (I think?) as the "victory year" if I recall. So basically I'm wondering if the game bogs down because it bloats itself into self-destruction. And of course if the new GD decided the "best" solution to fix it would be to just cap galaxy sizes at 600 or something there would be two immediate occurances: 1) there would be a mod that would restore 1000-galaxy starts and 2) there would be yet another massive rage thread in the Stellaris forum. So nothing would be solved.

As far as me normally quitting after 150 years, I think the main reason I get no stuttering is that I like to play games that are done in a day or so, which means I tend to play on "small" galaxy sizes (400 stars). So even if I play 200-300 years there is no stutter.

It's definitely a function of optimization and not a "bug", because when I ran your save I saw the same thing you did. I also tend to over-stuff my small galaxies with empires. I usually max out the number of empires sliders, Fallen Empires, (not Marauders. I leave that at 1. Screw those guys). I've reduced wormholes and gateways to minimal since people accused those of causing lag. So it's not really a function of number of empires or fleets but simply scale because I think your save had 10-12 empires and my games normally have that many empires. It's simply number of planets/pops/whatever.

Anyway. Hope that helps.
 

Remontoire

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When I was testing games, the same lag occurred for me as an observer on a 400-star galaxy size with only 4 AI empires, all gestalt consciousnesses. This lag occurred faster on harder difficulties, if I gave the AI max tech from the outset, or increased habitable planets - I could get it to occur as early as 2300 (1 month taking 20 seconds or so on fastest). Settings that reduced AI colonization and pop growth, or if I played instead of observed and prevented the AI from getting more colonized planets would mean I could play into victory year without lag.

In terms of my expectations, I would hope to be able to play a game against challenging AI to completion without hamstringing them by limiting planet availability or otherwise and at present I'm not able to do that while it wasn't an issue prior to Le Guin.
 

Ncc 1709

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I have played several different species, ethics styles and they all grind to a halt around 2400 if not a little earlier. its still possible to play, but the delay get irritating as hell
easier difficulties are smoother. Grand Admiral its almost stop go at 2312.
no restrictions with CPU, GPU, Ram or HD usage. its like its entirely Game Engine issues.
Reloading saves does nothing to clear the stutter up. Just scrolling the main map from left to right and back has just huge visible stutters.
i have recorded this