Perfecting the Low Countries: Limburg, Groningen and Jülich

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Martynios

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Hello all,

In last week's dev diary many map changes were announced, including to the Low Countries, overjoying me and many others. This greatly improved the historical accuracy of the region, but I believe this can be further improved without creating provinces that are too small.

tufBa5K.png


Take a moment to enjoy this colourful, home-edited map. While this map predates the EU4 start by ~44 years, the only differences are the existence of some small counties/lordships that were later absorbed into bigger ones, making the map reasonably suitable as a reference for this thread.
The changes announced last week amount to the following:
  • Holland has been divided into a northern and a southern province.
  • The province of Oversticht was added, representing the holdings of Utrecht on the other side of Gelre.
  • Friesland has been split in two, giving rise to the province of Groningen
  • The province of Limburg has been removed in favour of a province called Upper Guelders (the southern exclave of Geldern on the map), with slightly different borders.
The first two changes are great, and nothing can be done to improve on them.

Adding Groningen improved the historical accuracy of Frisia, which is equally nice. However, a flaw consists of Groningen being controlled by the Friesland tag. This is historically inaccurate, for the following reasons:
  • Groningen operated as an independent city-state. This is elaborated upon in this thread.
  • According to Wikipedia, Friesland in this era was "ruled" by a mayor, chosen from one of thirty municipalities. None of these municipalities were located in the province of Groningen, implying they were not the same nation.
  • The Groningen province also includes Drenthe, which was never under Frisian rule.
I propose that Groningen becomes an independent nation.

The replacement of Limburg too is a good change in my opinion, as Upper Guelders has a bigger area than Limburg and does justice to Gelre, which was a major regional power during the first quarter of the game's time period and has an interesting history, including for example the Guelders Wars, in which it managed to hold its own against Charles of Habsburg for a remarkably long time.

However, while I prefer the current over the previous situation, I think it is still suboptimal. Limburg not existing has a negative effect on the historical accuracy of the region, as it was an important duchy, containing the important fortress city of Maastricht, in which many battles were fought. Additionally, the lack of Limburg means that Liège is not encircled by the historical Seventeen Provinces, which has implications for gameplay.

A graphical reason for adding Limburg is that the province of Liège currently has a bit of an awkward and angular shape. By carving a Limburg province out of the eastern part of Liège, this province is reduced to a size more similar to other provinces in the area. The newly created Limburg province would be big enough for the game. It would be owned by Brabant.

LzqrH3Y.jpg


The top picture shows how the game map would look with the addition of a historically accurate Limburg province. The bottom pictures are maps of the same region in the mid-15th century, for comparing purposes. It can be seen that my proposed Limburg is bigger than Utrecht and about equal in size to Loon and Calais, three other provinces displayed in the picture.

The last opportunity I see for improving the current depiction of this region of the map concerns the non-existence of the duchy of Jülich. As has been explained before in different threads, Jülich was a significant regional power, at its height enjoying personal unions with Cleves, Berg and Gelre.

I think Jülich should be added as an independent province, in one of the following ways:
  • Replacing Aachen by Jülich. An advantage of this solution is that it wouldn't affect province clickability. As shown in the map on the bottom-left below, the free imperial city of Aachen only owned a fraction of the province, the vast majority consisting of Jülich. Aachen was politically far less relevant than Jülich. There are multiple examples were Paradox already decided not to place a free city on the map in favour of a bigger and more significant neighbour, such as Cologne, which is owned by the archbishopric rather than the city. A downside is the fact that the removal of a free city could be bad for the HRE. However, the addition of Groningen brings with it an extra potential free city.
  • Breaking Aachen in two. As shown below, splitting a Jülich province off Aachen is viable, although bringing the size of Aachen down close to that of Utrecht and Frankfurt is suboptimal. Optionally, the provinces could be expanded slightly into Trier, to make them more sizeable.
The resulting nation of Jülich would also own the province of Berg, unless I missed something in my research.

KjD3VrZ.jpg


The top picture shows again the game map, this time with both the addition of Limburg and the split of Aachen into Aachen and Jülich. The alternative, replacing Aachen with Jülich would not affect any borders, hence why I didn't make a map for that.

I think that if these changes are implemented, the map of the Low Countries will be nearly completely accurate and more or less perfect for game purposes, as the only missing provinces (e.g. Tournaisis) would be undoubtedly too small to implement. It would greatly improve my experience and probably that of others who value historical accuracy of the map.
Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: To even further improve the historical accuracy of the Low Countries region within the limits of the game map I propose the creation of a Groningen tag and the addition of a Limburg province, which will not be too small. Additionally, a Jülich province could be added, which is however a wee bit more arguable in terms of size.

EDIT: For an improved version of my suggestion, see the first threadmark.
 
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Martynios

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Essentially everything in this thread has already been discussed before but defnitly worth mentioning again. I think they skip Jülich because it's outside of the low countries, hopefully they add them in a HRE patch. When/if they add Jülich they need to split Berg into a Berg and a Mark province so both cleves and jülich get's two provinces each.

I would also love to see a new province of Limburg aswell as a split Luxemburg.
I don't think I've ever seen a suggestion with Upper Guelders and Limburg co-existing; either way, I envisioned this thread as an orderly overview of the last needed changes, complete with proof of viability in the form of an actual game map.

I think it's justified adding Jülich in this patch, after all it had very close ties with the Low Countries, having been ruled jointly with Guelders on multiple occasions. At the start of the game, I'd even dare say Jülich had more in common with Guelders than with a German state like, for example, Trier. I agree, splitting Berg would be more accurate, but I think it's way less of a problem than Jülich not actually existing.
 
Alternative idea

Em Ay Ef

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for what it's worth, the addition of Jülich seems to be among the most desirable changes, and even devs admitted that. the factor which decided against it was mostly province size, from what i recall.

i'm torn about Limburg because, while it'd be certainly nice to have it on the map, it doesn't add all that much value to the game, even from a tactical point of view (for Brabant to reach it, MA is required through Liége, Burgundy of Gelre anyways, making the provinces that surround Limburg accessible to them. other than that, Limburg serves mostly to eat up real estate, and if real estate is the biggest argument against Jülich, then i'd much rather see Jülich on the map than Limburg.

a possible way to solve this conundrum involves a deviation from geographical accuracy. if we just pretended that the Rhine flows several rows of pixels further to the east than it does now (so, if it pushed into Berg a little bit), we could move the entire province of Cologne along with it, thus freeing up some space to fit Jülich and Aachen and maybe even Limburg together (and there is always the option to dig into Luxembourg for a bit more room--which is also why i wouldn't give high priority to the division of this province). while on the other bank of the river there'd still be room to carve Mark out of Berg.
 

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for what it's worth, the addition of Jülich seems to be among the most desirable changes, and even devs admitted that. the factor which decided against it was mostly province size, from what i recall.

i'm torn about Limburg because, while it'd be certainly nice to have it on the map, it doesn't add all that much value to the game, even from a tactical point of view (for Brabant to reach it, MA is required through Liége, Burgundy of Gelre anyways, making the provinces that surround Limburg accessible to them. other than that, Limburg serves mostly to eat up real estate, and if real estate is the biggest argument against Jülich, then i'd much rather see Jülich on the map than Limburg.

a possible way to solve this conundrum involves a deviation from geographical accuracy. if we just pretended that the Rhine flows several rows of pixels further to the east than it does now (so, if it pushed into Berg a little bit), we could move the entire province of Cologne along with it, thus freeing up some space to fit Jülich and Aachen and maybe even Limburg together (and there is always the option to dig into Luxembourg for a bit more room--which is also why i wouldn't give high priority to the division of this province). while on the other bank of the river there'd still be room to carve Mark out of Berg.
Thank you for your thought-out reply.

I don’t think leaving out Limburg or moving the Rhine will be necessary; as you can see in threadmark Update I, the newly created provinces will be bigger than multiple pre-existing provinces that are in the same screenshot. Size is not an argument here.

As to gameplay reasons for having Limburg:
  • Brabant/Burgundy/Inheritor: besides just more development, Limburg gives its owner new borders to fabricate claims on.
  • Liège: will be surrounded by the Seventeen Provinces on all sides, which is accurate as it was a historical (near-)enclave, and didn’t expand during the time period.
  • Gelre: in the 13th century, Gelre inherited Limburg but lost the succession war against Brabant. Having the province existing would make for an interesting objective to reclaim it as Gelre.
Because of this and for the sake of historical borders, Limburg should be added.
 

Martynios

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To expand on my point above, perhaps there could be a mission for Gelre to conquer Limburg.
 

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  • Brabant/Burgundy/Inheritor: besides just more development, Limburg gives its owner new borders to fabricate claims on.
  • Liège: will be surrounded by the Seventeen Provinces on all sides, which is accurate as it was a historical (near-)enclave, and didn’t expand during the time period.
  • Gelre: in the 13th century, Gelre inherited Limburg but lost the succession war against Brabant. Having the province existing would make for an interesting objective to reclaim it as Gelre.
all of these are very good points, gameplay-wise, of which i did not think.

what i had in mind though was that, from the devs' perspective, the provinces like Utrecht and Frankfurt and so on seem to be seen as exceptions rather than precedents, i.e. their existence doesn't mean (to the team) that adding more similarly-sized provinces is desirable. i attempted at taking this factor into account while assessing what can realistically be done to convince the dev team to make all the necessary additions, and suggested ways to prioritize in case not all of our desired provinces can make the cut. by no means does it mean that i wouldn't want to see both Limburg and Jülich sitting there side by side.
 

Martynios

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all of these are very good points, gameplay-wise, of which i did not think.

what i had in mind though was that, from the devs' perspective, the provinces like Utrecht and Frankfurt and so on seem to be seen as exceptions rather than precedents, i.e. their existence doesn't mean (to the team) that adding more similarly-sized provinces is desirable. i attempted at taking this factor into account while assessing what can realistically be done to convince the dev team to make all the necessary additions, and suggested ways to prioritize in case not all of our desired provinces can make the cut. by no means does it mean that i wouldn't want to see both Limburg and Jülich sitting there side by side.
I agree, it's a good idea to post alternatives. The Limburg-only scenario is covered in my first post, thanks for providing the Jülich-only.
The small provinces already on the map might not serve as precedents, but we have no way of knowing this without asking the devs. I personally think, especially with the recently added small provinces in Japan, Ireland etc., that they are to become less of an exception in the future.
 

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Okay, this might be a bit of a late response, but what is up with the placement of Breda. This is something that has always bothered me in my home region.

I mean the map on the first page suggests that Breda should probably be shown on the map. But it shouldn't be this big right? I mean as is it's exactly where the current province of Noord (North) - Brabant is. While this is not the same as the Duchy of Brabant, it is a bit weird to have Breda spelled out massively where Brabant is. Especially considering the fact that the location of the city in eu4 is about where 's-Hertogenbosch (or Den Bosch, or Bois-le-Duc) is. The city which is named after the Duke, it's meaning is something along the lines of "The Duke's Forest" , which does mean the Duke of Brabant. According to this wiki page, it was also the capital of one of the four quarters of Brabant and the seat of the Bischop.

Having said all of that, I feel like you should probably rename the entire province after 's-Hertogenbosch, which was a major city in Brabant at the time, as opposed to Breda, which wasnt part of the Duchy of Brabant (at least at game start)

sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'s-Hertogenbosch; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brabant.

edit:

So I did some reading on the forums and found this older thread mentioning 's-Hertogenbosch and Breda aswell:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-drenthe-should-never-be-added.1026530/page-2

this makes some pretty strong arguments why the city shouldnt be in the game, despite it's impressive defences and defence, see this link. which has some excellent images of the defence structures too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_'s-Hertogenbosch

During the 80 year war Breda faced a long siege aswell, but I'm a bit less familiar with that one.

Now as is I dont see any compelling argument to name the province either Breda or 's-Hertogenbosch, since both where their own kwadrant at the time, although 's-Hertogenbosch was the larger one. I think comparing the two Breda has the fact that it did better economically (at least according the the pdx thread), where as 's-Hertogenbosch was the Capital of a larger kwadrant, seat of the biscchop and perhaps more important culturally (see Jheronimus Bosch)

splitting would make the map to cluttered, and renaming it just doesn't have a strong enough argument, considering the fact you have to make quite a few changes (and the name is a b*tch to spell fully ) I would still prefer it, especially since the location of the city is closer to 's-Hertogenbosch than it is to Breda in game. But oh well. cant have it all
 
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Okay, this might be a bit of a late response, but what is up with the placement of Breda. This is something that has always bothered me in my home region.

I mean the map on the first page suggests that Breda should probably be shown on the map. But it shouldn't be this big right? I mean as is it's exactly where the current province of Noord (North) - Brabant is. While this is not the same as the Duchy of Brabant, it is a bit weird to have Breda spelled out massively where Brabant is. Especially considering the fact that the location of the city in eu4 is about where 's-Hertogenbosch (or Den Bosch, or Bois-le-Duc) is. The city which is named after the Duke, it's meaning is something along the lines of "The Duke's Forest" , which does mean the Duke of Brabant. According to this wiki page, it was also the capital of one of the four quarters of Brabant and the seat of the Bischop.

Having said all of that, I feel like you should probably rename the entire province after 's-Hertogenbosch, which was a major city in Brabant at the time, as opposed to Breda, which wasnt part of the Duchy of Brabant (at least at game start)

sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'s-Hertogenbosch; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brabant.

edit:

So I did some reading on the forums and found this older thread mentioning 's-Hertogenbosch and Breda aswell:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-drenthe-should-never-be-added.1026530/page-2

this makes some pretty strong arguments why the city shouldnt be in the game, despite it's impressive defences and defence, see this link. which has some excellent images of the defence structures too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_'s-Hertogenbosch

During the 80 year war Breda faced a long siege aswell, but I'm a bit less familiar with that one.

Now as is I dont see any compelling argument to name the province either Breda or 's-Hertogenbosch, since both where their own kwadrant at the time, although 's-Hertogenbosch was the larger one. I think comparing the two Breda has the fact that it did better economically (at least according the the pdx thread), where as 's-Hertogenbosch was the Capital of a larger kwadrant, seat of the biscchop and perhaps more important culturally (see Jheronimus Bosch)

splitting would make the map to cluttered, and renaming it just doesn't have a strong enough argument, considering the fact you have to make quite a few changes (and the name is a b*tch to spell fully ) I would still prefer it, especially since the location of the city is closer to 's-Hertogenbosch than it is to Breda in game. But oh well. cant have it all

I very much agree with all your points, both about having to choose and it being a hard choice. Unfortunately , the current situation is a province called Breda, which has a capital called 's Hertogenbosch, which is just wrong. I really hope this will be changed in the upcoming patch
 

Martynios

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A point related to this thread:
Currently the province of Upper Guelders lacks a proper localisation. The Dutch name should be Opper-Gelre. German would be Obergeldern.

I know the Low Countries have seen a small update recently, but implementing these changes seems like very little effort to me, especially considering how readily available relevant maps are. Considering how in past patches the map changes weren't always exclusive to the region the patch focused on, I don't think this should have to wait until a specific Low Countries/Spanish Dominions/HRE update.
 
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Martynios

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@neondt Congratulations on now being the sole content designer for EU4. :)

I figured you probably hadn't seen this thread.