Perfect intel makes mission difficulties too predictable!

[MajorPrankster]

IMO, this is, literally, a fundamental human issue.
I go to movies knowing _nothing_ about the movie.
Others want to know _everything_ about the movie before going.

I would prefer much more random intel and OpFor mechanics.
I would love for there to be more 'random' restrictions.

I would hate to have more intel.
I would hate to have a pre-map of the OpFor, in any fashion, unless I have actually been there and thus know the landscape.

I love the real BT feeling - the fact no matter how carefully you plan, RNG can still get you, you CANNOT control the universe, you are NOT destined to prevail.
Failure is a good option in a game.

I do not want this game to hold my hand any more than it does and I would prefer it did so even less.

 

[mjbroekman]

Perfect example of how IMPERFECT the intel is:

2 skull "Trap Sprung" Battle mission.

• 99% of the time, "Trap Sprung" is a vehicle.
• Salvage max was 2/11
• I forget what the cbills were.

I wasn't expecting much and grabbed 2/8 salvage instead of the middle ground 1/6 because I like having a minimum of 2 priority picks. Still, I was expecting a bunch of armored lights and some medium or heavy vehicle(s).

OpFor:

• Primary: 1 (ONE) barely armored Enforcer
• Reinforcements: 4 barely armored lights (Firestarter, Locust, Jenner, Panther)

That's it. That's BARELY a 1 skull mission in my opinion.

That is in stark contrast to the "2 skull" Battle mission I took earlier in this career where I ended up running into 2 fully armored Wolverines, a fully armored Trebuchet, and a fully armored Vindicator.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Another perfect example of Darius' limited intel.

2-skull Recovery mission. Max Salvage 3/14. I picked 2/11.

Opfor? A partially armored Manticore tank and a partially armored Cicada. I got 9 pieces of salvage out of the deal (because that's all there was)

 

[SQW]

As for the "okay, the opfor is gone we can pick you up"... that is most definitely a shortcut to keep the player from having to trudge across a map with nothing to do because "just keep walking" is not fun or engaging.

Which makes it weird that I still have to stand around and kill the buildings before he'll release the drop shop that b*stard. lol

Seriously, I have to spend 5min killing those hp boxes at the end of every battle and if I was unlucky enough to run out of ammo and only have MLs and SLs to work with, god help me I'll log out and rant of the forum.

 

[Rørik Þrumsålr]

Played a 2 skull assassination mission that consisted of an Orion and 4 LRM carriers and 4 medium mech reinforcements that spawned directly behind me (kintaro, '20 hunchie, an enforcer and a trebuchet). The reinforcements spawned before I made contact with the carriers and the Orion, and worse it happened before I even made it to cover. The first round took my Griffon and Quickdraw the second crippled my Catapult.

If anything I feel the missions are still really inconsistent difficulty wise. Mind all this was set on the "easy" difficulty. (yeah, I wanted to have a relatively relaxing playthrough this time) Am I the only one who feels like that modifier doesn't do anything?

 

[SQW]

Played a 2 skull assassination mission that consisted of an Orion and 4 LRM carriers and 4 medium mech reinforcements that spawned directly behind me (kintaro, '20 hunchie, an enforcer and a trebuchet). The reinforcements spawned before I made contact with the carriers and the Orion, and worse it happened before I even made it to cover. The first round took my Griffon and Quickdraw the second crippled my Catapult.

If anything I feel the missions are still really inconsistent difficulty wise. Mind all this was set on the "easy" difficulty. (yeah, I wanted to have a relatively relaxing playthrough this time) Am I the only one who feels like that modifier doesn't do anything?

Reinforcements either spawn on map edges or already present on the map in assassination contracts. In over 300hrs, I've only seen 1 ninja spawn from a base destruction mission. Are you sure you didn't just sprint into view of two full lances?

Also, don't look at the skulls, look at the rewards.

In any case, the problem seems to be the spawning rather than the intel - a mix lance of medium/heavy normally wouldn't have an issue with that opfor.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I am glad that HBS has so effectively and efficiently created Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War in BATTLETECH.

Being an Intelligence Professional, when games include PERFECT INTEL, I just can’t help but lose interest quickly. So while Darius May devolve into a BATTLETECH meme alongside Dekker, I am find with that. HBS got this one so very Right. : )

 

[AussieGiant]

I am glad that HBS has so effectively and efficiently created Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War in BATTLETECH.

Being an Intelligence Professional, when games include PERFECT INTEL, I just can’t help but lose interest quickly. So while Darius May devolve into a BATTLETECH meme alongside Dekker, I am find with that. HBS got this one so very Right. : )

Completely agree PH.

The only way a game can replicate the vagaries of the real world is through RNG. Nothing is perfect and anyone with real world experience knows this.

RNG being used for chances to hit, hit location, intel and all the other aspects is what must be done to ensure tension and an actually enjoyable game.

 

[SQW]

I am glad that HBS has so effectively and efficiently created Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War in BATTLETECH.

Being an Intelligence Professional, when games include PERFECT INTEL, I just can’t help but lose interest quickly. So while Darius May devolve into a BATTLETECH meme alongside Dekker, I am find with that. HBS got this one so very Right. : )

But my point is BT has too much intel during contract negotiation. Once you've had a few battles under your belt, there is not a lot of RNG left that could surprise you - the missions will go exactly as employer dictated (no MMM back stabs), you'll have a very good idea of the level of opposition before going in and basically the only way the game can 'screw' you is through salvage RNG.

I keep bringing up Battle Brothers because the similarities it has with BT and how the former does a lot of merc sim components better in my view. In BB, you have the standard 'kill target' contracts but a lot of others will leave you guessing. While the skull/money indicators works the same as in BT, BB's contracts are far more opaque and can often throw a curl ball at you right before combat.

I just feel BB grips you in suspense every step of the way while BT turns into a comfy 9-5 job towards the mid game. I'm sure HBS is experienced enough to choose this route by design to cover a wider audience but given how the granular difficulties were put in quickly, I'd say your core audiences would want a bit more bite from their BT.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

But my point is BT has too much intel during contract negotiation. Once you've had a few battles under your belt, there is not a lot of RNG left that could surprise you - the missions will go exactly as employer dictated (no MMM back stabs), you'll have a very good idea of the level of opposition before going in and basically the only way the game can 'screw' you is through salvage RNG.

I keep bringing up Battle Brothers because the similarities it has with BT and how the former does a lot of merc sim components better in my view. In BB, you have the standard 'kill target' contracts but a lot of others will leave you guessing. While the skull/money indicators works the same as in BT, BB's contracts are far more opaque and can often throw a curl ball at you right before combat.

I just feel BB grips you in suspense every step of the way while BT turns into a comfy 9-5 job towards the mid game. I'm sure HBS is experienced enough to choose this route by design to cover a wider audience but given how the granular difficulties were put in quickly, I'd say your core audiences would want a bit more bite from their BT.

While you feel it becomes a comfy 9-5 job towards the mid game, others clearly do not share this opinion. In this I find proof that HBS has already hit that sweet spot, a very suitable compromise in the Goldilocks Effect of Too Difficult thru Not Difficult Enough... and Granular Difficukty Settings let us all fine-tune our BATTLETECH experience, one way or the other. Basically salting to our various gaming tastes, so to speak. : )

Curve balls and opaque contracts, if suitably recompensed, most definitely have their attractions for me. Perhaps in the updates between now and URBAN WARFARE and EXPANSION 3 we will find additions, compliments and revisions to the current BATTLETECH Granular Difficulty Settings.

I find that Pieces of Eight, CT Destruction and the other Granular Difficulty Setting offer all the Bite I care to handle, but some refinements and additional Granular Dofficukty Settings would be very welcome indeed. :bow:

 

[Pherdnut]

It would be interesting if your performance in the face of bad intel could potentially lead to greater influence/reward gain.

 

[SQW]

It would be interesting if your performance in the face of bad intel could potentially lead to greater influence/reward gain.

It sure can. A contract X turned into contract Y situation? On-the-spot negotiation with the employer with better reward range than the original. Your choice to take it or leave with just the 'gas money'.

I find that Pieces of Eight, CT Destruction and the other Granular Difficulty Setting offer all the Bite I care to handle, but some refinements and additional Granular Dofficukty Settings would be very welcome indeed. :bow:

The granular difficulties mainly just prolong the grind rather than make it more difficult and FP just piles on the opfor tonnage so that's not really ideal either. So far, I haven't seen any modders going wild with the FP mechanic either. I just want more options, more variables and more unexpected twists to my merc life than wading through mech after mech in one-dimensional slug fests.

I'm really hoping Urban Warfare will shake up the formula.

 

[Amechwarrior]

So far, I haven't seen any modders going wild with the FP mechanic either. I just want more options, more variables and more unexpected twists to my merc life than wading through mech after mech in one-dimensional slug fests.

What is it you would like to see modders go crazy at specifically? I'm slowly trying to figure out using the FP editor and while it's not user friendly at all, I got a few ideas for FPs. My most developed one is of course another wadeing mech after mech slug fest, but could you quantify what you'd want modders to try and do with it?

 

[SQW]

What is it you would like to see modders go crazy at specifically? I'm slowly trying to figure out using the FP editor and while it's not user friendly at all, I got a few ideas for FPs. My most developed one is of course another wadeing mech after mech slug fest, but could you quantify what you'd want modders to try and do with it?

Like some has suggested further up: contracts that have a chance to evolve in-mission with appropriate rewards for players that can/choose to adapt on the fly.

The FP mechanic is good at building up a narrative through branching paths during briefing stage but if the actual contracts are still just go to point A and kill targets B, then it's not much better than playing consecutive vanilla missions back-to-back.

Mission objective variables will also help combat the late game stagnation I believe. If the client tells you the scouting mission has a chance to turn into a convoy destroy mission, then maybe you wouldn't bring 2 Atalasi and 2 KGCs. If the client warns you the retrieval mission might contain extremely heavy reinforcement from the garrison, maybe you forgo the salvage and bring 4 spiders. Maybe that merc lance you rescued a while back suddenly decided to drop in and return the favor turning a hard fight into a cake walk.

Several months ago, I threw out idea that involved limited-timed contracts that restrict players to lights and mediums (for example, client has an urgent scout/raiding mission that for various reasons will not allow heavier chassis to be used) as a means to break up the late game assault monotony. While TA wasn't my ideal of light/medium friendly mission type, it's nice to see HBS and I are thinking the same way. Hopefully, by northern summer, in-mission variables will pop up. Hey, urban warfare is known for lack of accurate intel and sudden shift in the situations right?

 

[Jade_Rook]

Something like Base Defense turns into Convoy Escort around turn 3 or 4 when the employer realizes that the incoming opposition is too strong and your reinforcements won't arrive in time? A Recovery mission that becomes a Battle mission when you find out that your evac is going to be late so you will need to clear the way? A Destroy Base mission becoming a Destroy Convoy when a VIP tries to escape?

I think there is some value in trying to work those kinds of mission changes in.

 

[SQW]

Something like Base Defense turns into Convoy Escort around turn 3 or 4 when the employer realizes that the incoming opposition is too strong and your reinforcements won't arrive in time? A Recovery mission that becomes a Battle mission when you find out that your evac is going to be late so you will need to clear the way? A Destroy Base mission becoming a Destroy Convoy when a VIP tries to escape?

I think there is some value in trying to work those kinds of mission changes in.

As long as the briefing is worded in such way the players are forewarned, I don't see too many players complain about the RNG. On-the-spot contract negotiation can also be used on occasion to give players further incentive/option to accept or refuse the new contract but I don't think the current mission generation can handle that extra step.

Thematically, it fits with the unpredictable nature of guns for hire as opposed to the perfectly laid out system we have now.