People like me want independence

[moscal]

Current if vassals have culture and religion like a sovereign they don't join to independence factions.

IMO this isn't good. In history we had few points, where vassals want independence and also were from this same religion and culture like a senior.

They should have lesser chances to join, but still should have.

 

[lozikk]

For real? Damn, that's strange decision. Strong vassals should want an independence sometime if they can't influence the realm as they want

 

[moscal]

For real?

Yes. Therefore basis strategy is "give lands for peoples with my religion and culture".

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

I didn't know about this. You learn something new everyday.

Certainly the stability of realms is something brought up fairly frequently. I wonder if the devs will address this in future content.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Current if vassals have culture and religion like a sovereign they don't join to independence factions.

That's not quite true; the only full blockers that have to do with shared culture and religion with your liege are these:

modifier = {
   factor = 0
   liege = {
      religion = ROOT
      culture = ROOT
      OR = {
          NOT = { distance = { who = ROOT distance = 100 } }
          AND = {
              NOT = { distance = { who = ROOT distance = 200 } }
              ROOT = {
                  OR = {
                      NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
                      is_reformed_religion = yes
                  }
              }
              OR = {
                  NOT = { ROOT = { religion_group = pagan_group } }
                  ROOT = { is_reformed_religion = yes }
              }
          }
          AND = {
              de_jure_vassal_or_below = ROOT
              NOT = { ROOT = { tier = KING } }
          }
      }
   }
}

modifier = {
   factor = 0
   lower_tier_than = KING
   OR = {
      NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
      is_reformed_religion = yes
   }
   liege = {
      culture_group = ROOT
      religion_group = ROOT
      OR = {
          religion = ROOT
          culture = ROOT
      }
      NOT = { distance = { who = ROOT distance = 200 } }
   }
}

Translated from script, this prevents faction starting/joining in these cases:

- You have the same culture and religion and either a) you're not a king and they're your de jure liege, b) you're closer to them than 100 distance units, or c) you're not an unreformed pagan and are closer than 200 distance units.

- You aren't a king, aren't an unreformed pagan, your liege shares either your culture group or your religion group and either your religion or culture and you're closer to them than 200 distance units.

Outside of the above cases, having the exact same culture and religion as your liege is merely a 0.25 modifier, which isn't particularly big compared to e.g. the modifier for Content (0.025), so the "lesser chance to join" bit is already a thing.


I personally feel that there should be a possibility of distant enough (my tentative suggestion is 250 distance units, as that's within a reasonable distance of several de jure capitals) non-king de jure vassals seeking independence even if they share your culture and religion, and I feel that the second blocker above could be decreased and/or rewritten (since there well could be religions in the same group that shouldn't feel any kind of kinship, e.g. two radically different reformed pagan religions), so I'm on board with the general idea, but let's not spread misinformation or suggest something that's actually already in the game...

 

[delta180]

honestly, I have only seen an AI independence faction win on its own once. When I want independence I use the favour system to get supporters.

having the exact same culture and religion as your liege is merely a 0.25 modifier,

that is still 1/4th of the chance

 

[moscal]

@Silversweeeper och, ok. But IMO this still is joke and in praxis is limited only to great empires. In 90% cases this haven't place. This shouldn't 0... never...

 

[Silversweeeper]

that is still 1/4th of the chance

Yes, but that's not hard to overcome with modifiers that increase revolt willingness (e.g. Ambitious is a 4x modifier, a distance over 300 is 1.5x (and over 400 is 2x on top of that), -20 opinion is 1.5x (-50 opinion is 2x on top of that, and -75 opinion is 4x on top of that), Proud/Brave/Arbitrary/being a viceroy is 1.5x each, Envious/Greedy/Impaler/Deceitful/having a "tyrant" liege are 2x each), and compared to some other non-blocker modifiers it is rather small (Pacifist is 0.2, Content/Craven/Imbecile are 0.025 each, Inbred/Slow/Dull are 0.1 each). Maybe it could be a bit larger (perhaps even 0.5x), but I'd be reluctant to make that change without running a good number of observer games to check the impact if the de jure condition was relaxed significantly as such a change already would make the faction significantly more likely to become a problem.

@Silversweeeper och, ok. But IMO this still is joke and in praxis is limited only to great empires. In 90% cases this haven't place. This shouldn't 0... never...

I don't think there never should be a blocker, since a duke-or-below, de jure, same religion, same culture vassal in the heartland seeking independence makes a lot less sense than them seeking to weaken or overthrow their liege. For example, a Greek Orthodox viceroy of Nikaea thinking that independence is a good idea when the imperial borders of the Greek Orthodox ERE would make Justinian jealous doesn't seem remotely plausible.

 

[moscal]

I don't think there never should be a blocker, since a duke-or-below, de jure, same religion, same culture vassal in the heartland seeking independence makes a lot less sense than them seeking to weaken or overthrow their liege. For example, a Greek Orthodox viceroy of Nikaea thinking that independence is a good idea when the imperial borders of the Greek Orthodox ERE would make Justinian jealous doesn't seem remotely plausible.

In situation, when independence faction have every vassals in outside Greece also?

 

[Silversweeeper]

In situation, when independence faction have every vassals in outside Greece also?

I'd probably still consider staying loyal (or "loyal", if you don't actually support the rule of your current liege...) to be a far more sensible idea, considering you'd be in a very reasonable position to take over the ERE (or further weaken it by forcing a shift in council laws, or deposing your liege in favour of a claimant) after the war is over and that that probably would be quite a bit more appealing than being an independent duke.

Maybe it would be worth considering independence if everyone (between you and the border) on every outer "layer" was part of the faction, but that'd be a nightmare to check for in script as there could be a ton of layers between you and the border (and presumably a one county wide line to the border wouldn't be sufficient if you're quite far away from it, so you'd have to check for a wide enough "slice", too), and considering you'd presumably be weaker than your former liege after independence it seems like a rather risky prospect to go independent when you hold de jure territory very close to the capital that is likely to result in you being de jure warred (or claim warred) into oblivion fairly quickly, so the smart thing to do would usually be to avoid going independent in that situation (at leat for the AI; a human player might have taken many steps to deal with reconquest attempts before even considering independence).

Besides, small-to-medium-sized realms (e.g. England, France, the Christian kingdoms in Iberia, and the Scandinavian kingdoms) should presumably stay together if they're culturally and religiously homogenous, as that'd be more true to history than them breaking apart at the seams the first time the top liege upsets his vassals, so a "You can always try to go independent if you're on the border or if a reasonable slice of everyone between you and the border want independence" condition would probably not work well without a "unless you're a de jure vassal within distance X of the capital" caveat (with some possible caveats to that, e.g. a realm with all laws (maybe excepting Succession Voting) in favour of the council, or that's unreformed pagan, or that's Early Feudal having a smaller X), and to cover most small-to-medium-sized historical realms you'd need an X that'd be noticeably larger than the distance between Constantinople and Nikaea.

At most, I'd be open to having a vanishingly small but non-zero (say 0.01x or smaller) chance of de jure duke-or-below vassals seeking independence from their same culture, same religion liege if they're closer than a reasonable distance X (as already mentioned, I'd probably go with X = 250 "distance units") if they're on the border/everyone outside them is in the faction, as there normally should be a reasonable amount of consolidation going on; the overall realm size distribution (in the relevant part of the world) you'd arrive at if you merged PUs and vassals into their liege's realm (as that's how those are handled in CK2) and also merged the HRE into a single blob (it CK2 terms, it would be a very council-favoured united realm) in the earliest EU4 starts and then projected that onto CK2 should presumably be the "average" CK2 outcome without player intervention, after all.