Penalty for early research is BOGUS!!!

[unmerged(40516)]

"Researching ahead of time (information gathered from this board and not tested myself):

You get a cumulative 0,15% penalty per day for researching ahead of time. The cap for this penalty is at 90%. The relevant time for a tech is always 01.01. of the corresponding year. So a 1938 technology started at 01.01.37 would get a 360*0,15% = 54% penalty for the first day, a 53,85% penalty for the second day and so on until you reach 01.01.38 when you don’t get any penalty for the remaining research of this tech anymore."

Why did you guys do this??? If Germany wants to ignore researching subs so they can build Panthers in 1941 then they will pay the price against England. Penalizing research done before it's historic year is inane and Grigsby-esque (like any game by Gary Grigsby in which the game is forced to follow a pre-determined course). What is the rationale for this??? I'd like to see this penalty removed.

 

[bizkit]

they are just trying o make the game more realistic..but on the other hand , you are right

 

[Makeyourownmind]

Penalty for Research

I have played with it several times, this system is ok. No really weird things happen, what is an important part of such games. And you CAN have Panthers in 1941; you only need to abandon much more than your subs.

 

[unmerged(40516)]

I have played with it several times, this system is ok. No really weird things happen, what is an important part of such games. And you CAN have Panthers in 1941; you only need to abandon much more than your subs.

And here I thought that Porche had taken an extended vacation judging by his very slow progress with the Panther (~53% as of 9'41, started in '40). At first I thought this might be related to my lack of anti-tank tech (still at basic = 37mm) WHICH WOULD MAKE SENSE (hint! hint!), but now I see it just WAD. The tech system in HoI1 was tedious, but I really think Paradox oversimplified it in HoI2. There needs to be more interconnection between things like artillery/gun research and powerful tanks/ships. Either make more prereqs (which would require more tech teams available to get even barely historic progress) or make unit attributes related to specific tech types (i.e. armor hard attack is poor if you only have 37mm guns). That way you could have your Panther chassis, but mounting puny guns if you don't have better available. Maybe even allow the player to design units by combining, say, a heavy howitzer with the Panther chassis for lots of soft attack and hard defense but little hard attack (think how nice that would be for the Japs in China to have vehicles mostly impervious to Chinese AT weapons that could smash infantry, or for the Russians to build thousands of flimsy vehicles with 100mm AT guns). You would have to keep informed about the types of units your enemies were fielding in order to design your own to counter them rather than just building "Type IV Tanks" and knowing that they were a match for the enemy's. THAT would make the game VERY interesting and shouldn't be too hard to write the code to do it.

 

[Makeyourownmind]

Penalty for Research- 2

For beginners - try this: http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Research

One year ahead is mostly ok for majors, two years is hard even for a major player. More than two years costs you more then it could be worth. And diversification was not the issue of this thread...

 

[The Wookiee]

Have you even thought of the balancing issues?

 

[unmerged(21817)]

The ahead of time penalty isn't all that unhistorical, it represents among other thing the lack of knowledge that can only be attained through time, besides it is an extremely important balancing issue, as everyone would have 45 infantery and semi modern tanks at the start of barbarossa otherwise, how fun would that be?

 

[Spruce]

"Researching ahead of time (information gathered from this board and not tested myself):

You get a cumulative 0,15% penalty per day for researching ahead of time. The cap for this penalty is at 90%. The relevant time for a tech is always 01.01. of the corresponding year. So a 1938 technology started at 01.01.37 would get a 360*0,15% = 54% penalty for the first day, a 53,85% penalty for the second day and so on until you reach 01.01.38 when you don’t get any penalty for the remaining research of this tech anymore."

Why did you guys do this??? If Germany wants to ignore researching subs so they can build Panthers in 1941 then they will pay the price against England. Penalizing research done before it's historic year is inane and Grigsby-esque (like any game by Gary Grigsby in which the game is forced to follow a pre-determined course). What is the rationale for this??? I'd like to see this penalty removed.

you did just tackle your own point . Researching Panthers in 1941 is just hypothetical because the Germans used the Soviet sloped armour lesson and the improved 75 mm gun in their Panther design. So researching "ahead of time" could never give a Panther as we all knew the Panther.

Researching ahead of historical date should be penalised both for logical reasons and balancing reasons.

The compromise is a penalty with a formula - nicely done by Paradox imho,

and - if you really want you can still try to get those Panthers more early then the rest.

 

[unmerged(13894)]

It makes sense if you think about it. If you research something at the historical date, others are doing the same, and this provides more available knowledge (ie. minor espionage, science publications, etc., give you ideas and possibly keep you from making mistakes that someone else has done already)

When you are early, some of the sub-techs may be worked on by others, but not all the sub-techs, or as many nations. Thus the available knowledge is less, and more blind experimentation must be done by your country. At 2 years or more early, you can assume that you are the only nation conducting research in that field at that time, and you are the only one with any knowledge of it.

 

[Don E]

"Researching ahead of time (information gathered from this board and not tested myself):

You get a cumulative 0,15% penalty per day for researching ahead of time. The cap for this penalty is at 90%. The relevant time for a tech is always 01.01. of the corresponding year. So a 1938 technology started at 01.01.37 would get a 360*0,15% = 54% penalty for the first day, a 53,85% penalty for the second day and so on until you reach 01.01.38 when you don’t get any penalty for the remaining research of this tech anymore."

Why did you guys do this??? If Germany wants to ignore researching subs so they can build Panthers in 1941 then they will pay the price against England. Penalizing research done before it's historic year is inane and Grigsby-esque (like any game by Gary Grigsby in which the game is forced to follow a pre-determined course). What is the rationale for this??? I'd like to see this penalty removed.

I don't think Paradox will remove this penalty (for reasons well put by the other posters), but if you want to remove it just edit the 'misc.txt' file. There is a value 'Pre-Historical Date Mod' there that you could change from -0.0015 to 0, thus eliminating the penalty. Or you could choose a value somewhere inbetween to just reduce the penalty.

Cheers,
E

 

[unmerged(40597)]

I agree on research penalty

In several of these types of games that try to reconstruct history, it's pretty hard to resist the tempation to drive down an "uber script," that knows the outcomes, and tries to force the outcomes. The further you get from the history, the harder it is to keep the game balanced, and the AI just really can't keep up.

So, I'm sympathetic, and it would require significant testing to make sure the game doesn't go crazy if certain tech paths are taken.

I'm reminded of Civ II, in which if you take certain wonders, then you get an insane advantage over the other civilizations and the game is basically over.

 

[unmerged(40516)]

I'm reminded of Civ II, in which if you take certain wonders, then you get an insane advantage over the other civilizations and the game is basically over.

I've never seen the Civ AI shrink from simply cheating to keep up.

 

[unmerged(38419)]

Yeah, they were obviously cheating. First, I thought that they are stealing my techs however they mostly didn't have any money and they manage to get their hands to my techs silently. Mysteriouuuusss

IMO, the penalty for "over-achievement" should be made less. One country should be able to develop their technologies according to 'their' needs not according to the time

 

[perragradeen]

I don't think Paradox will remove this penalty (for reasons well put by the other posters), but if you want to remove it just edit the 'misc.txt' file. There is a value 'Pre-Historical Date Mod' there that you could change from -0.0015 to 0, thus eliminating the penalty. Or you could choose a value somewhere inbetween to just reduce the penalty.

Cheers,
E

I think this is good, let the player decide what is "good" balance, if the player dont want any penalty for early resarch, then let him/her.
It would be advisable to have a easy interface option so that this feature could be changed on/off or set value, maybe as a part of difficulty.

 

[perragradeen]

I think this is good, let the player decide what is "good" balance, if the player dont want any penalty for early resarch, then let him/her.
It would be advisable to have a easy interface option so that this feature could be changed on/off or set value, maybe as a part of difficulty.

I realised that it takes longer time to research when on tougher difficulty...

 

[unmerged(2037)]

I think the system works fine, but its presentation is totally wrong. It seems some people do not like to be penalized for doing something 'ahead of history' despite how many times they are told the tech costs are based on certain level of general knowledge and the research would go worse if the level was lower.
I would suggest to increase the tech cost, rename the 'historical year' to 'year when it is common' and provide bonus to research instead of penalty. Nobody would object to bonus and world will be fine

 

[unmerged(16611)]

I suggest a penalty for being ahead of the rest of the world instead of being ahead of time, similar to the system EU2 used, where you get a neighbour bonus if you where behind your neighbours. For example, you could get a 10 % bonus for every nation that allready knows the technology.

 

[unmerged(39735)]

Someone mentioned that the penalty is supposedly capped at 90% but I don't think that's true. I tried researching one of the '40 techs almost 4 years early it was still at 0.0% completed after about a week. At 10 days it was at 0.2% completed. I don't think there's a cap on the penalty.

One thing I think they should do for older techs is to give bonuses to your chance of stealing blueprints for old techs as the time between the current date and the historical date increases. I notice as Germany that even if I ignore a whole class of techs (like researching no ships at all) I very rarely get any blueprints until Italy and/or Japan join the Axis and hand over all their techs.

 

[unmerged(2037)]

Someone mentioned that the penalty is supposedly capped at 90% but I don't think that's true. I tried researching one of the '40 techs almost 4 years early it was still at 0.0% completed after about a week. At 10 days it was at 0.2% completed. I don't think there's a cap on the penalty.

One thing I think they should do for older techs is to give bonuses to your chance of stealing blueprints for old techs as the time between the current date and the historical date increases. I notice as Germany that even if I ignore a whole class of techs (like researching no ships at all) I very rarely get any blueprints until Italy and/or Japan join the Axis and hand over all their techs.

I have seen somewhere posted, that there is even greater penalty when researching more than 2 years in advance.

 

[unmerged(12544)]

If you want to, open the misc.txt, near the button go to

Pre-Historical Date Mod

and set it to 0.