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jmschaub

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It's been there since the beginning of the EU series. That pesky penalty that applies to all things non western. While I'm not proposing we eliminate it. I am proposing we change from the fixed value system. We should research why these countries were so backwards. My first instinct is to attach it to trade some how. After all ideas do pass through trade. No one traded with the Americas until they were discovered. Minus internal trade. Africa had a few external trade routes. Western Europe had the most. Perhaps it's a good start to get the ideas rolling. A dynamic penalty would be a good thing. I never could get into the "Westernize" button.
 
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TheDecider

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Last week I played a bit of Vic2 as Chinese Empire and westernized, which felt a lot more rewarding as a process than the current in EU4. You essentially had to fill a bar of a certain capacity by picking between a couple of different techs ( which gave immediate benefits ) to different aspects of your country, you didn't have to pick all of them (so you got some options) and when done you just clicked the westernize button which further boosted you to the "base" level of techs. I guess it's similar to the Maya religion reform or native westernizing process - both of which are more fun to do than watching a ticking bar slowly fill (or get set back due to events).

Since westernizing no longer gives you western units (which it did in 1.0), I also don't see much in the way of allowing nations outside of Europe to rid themselves of the tech penalty, either completely from the start, or at least from a more rewarding process. The new espionage option in 1.14 to increase MP from being far behind is also a new tool in the box for making the process faster... but I'm still not sure if it will only exacerbate the problem... if it'll feel "genuine" or tacked on as a new chore. We will see :)
 
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Zohtun

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Personally I reckon being non-Western should give you a mixed bag of penalties and bonuses. Westernisation is still an option, but you lose something in the deal. It's quite jarring to read guides for various groups and there's stuff like "Colonise near Spain ASAP". We should be able to do cool stuff WITHOUT having to instantly abandon our heritage and Westernise centuries before it happened IRL (Assuming it did at all).
 

Dutchman251

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You don't have to westernize. (except for americans). I'm doing an unwesternized run as Bharat now, and am beating those westerners by numbers. You should only not expect to be able to conquer Europe without westernization, but any colony you will beat, and no one beats 60 heavies.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You don't have to westernize. (except for americans). I'm doing an unwesternized run as Bharat now, and am beating those westerners by numbers. You should only not expect to be able to conquer Europe without westernization, but any colony you will beat, and no one beats 60 heavies.

I am pretty sure someone like Path could 1-tag without westernizing. He 1-tagged Ryukyu in early 1700's, and the point differential on Indian or Chinese isn't enough to lose you 70 years. I don't see why a Chinese tech nation would struggle with 2-3 completed military ideas and current tech (I have done that, and still had admin efficiency).

What you lose out on is efficiency. The problem with westernization from a gameplay standpoint is that it creates screwy incentives. Normally, picking up disjointed territory in the Caucuses or vaulting downstream to snipe a European colony in Cape has only minimal upside. However, due to the contrived nature of tech groups and penalties, you have strong incentive to do otherwise completely wonky conquests. Blocking it as a European has similarly strange incentives, like only conquering small nations outright for the trade company and protectorate blocking, meaning that it's not viable to do what England did in India for example if you want to stop westernization and keep protectorates.

A lot of this could be solved if the old world nations had triggered modifiers or some other mechanic that allowed them to reduce technology cost as opposed to westernization. I don't care one bit for the selective-realism nonsense that's usually coughed up wrt westernization being "ahistorical" in this kind of game, but at the end of the day the gameplay incentives the current mechanic creates constrain your idea group choices unnecessarily and create nonsense incentives.
 
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