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Slavick3000

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As I've had a lull in the workload at the university, I decided to revisit those Britannia events I have been working on, and re-discovered how strange the cultural layout in Interregnum seems to be. This is just a thread to comment on them, and possibly find out why they are that way.

Firstly, Cymric. Why is it its own culture, rather than being part of Gaelic? If Eire controls it, it becomes Gaelic anyways. The only other country with Gaelic culture is Scotland, and it usually loses it by the time it is in position to annex Cymru. I propose simply integrating Cymric into Gaelic, and maybe giving Scotland a tax penalty if they take it.

Secondly, the strange distribution between Slavonic and Romanian. The three Romanian provinces essentially cut the Slavonic area in half. Also, Wallachia, Bulgaria, and Moldova own one of each, requiring them all to have both cultures, and kind of defeating the point of having a separate Romanian culture. Furthermore, why does Byzantium have Slavonic culture? They rarely, if ever, expand in that direction.

Thirdly, Settled Turcoman vs. Nomadic Turcoman. Every nation that has one of them as accepted has the other and they seem to be scattered about, hampering the various GH revolters such as Kazan and Crimea, since they only get one of those. Maybe some sort of event-based conflict between nomadic turcomen and the settled ones? Have event options to make you choose between which of the two cultures you will favor, leading you to either get more troops (make the nomadic provinces high-manpower) or more money (by concentrating tax in the settled areas).

Fourthly, what is up with Bedouin? It seems to be randomly scattered about Arabic areas. It seems like it could be a similar dynamic to the settled vs. nomadic turcomen though. Hmm... event sequence ideas...

Fifthly, the Mongol culture is divided into two sections - one near China, and the other in the Il-Khanate. Furthermore, it is divided into two by Uighur, which is also a somewhat mongol-like culture.

Sixthly, the random spot of Malay culture in Champa territory (southern Vietnam).

Seventhly, Taiwan, as well as all of Zimbabwe, have Unique culture. This is made even more peculiar by the fact that Zimbabwe has Shona as its state culture.

Eighthly, Quiang. What is it supposed to represent, and what is its point? It appears in one province only, and is not a state culture for anyone.

I am not criticizing anything, was just curious if there was/is a point behind those specific decisions that I seem to be missing.
 

unmerged(15247)

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Firstly, Cymric. Why is it its own culture, rather than being part of Gaelic? If Eire controls it, it becomes Gaelic anyways. The only other country with Gaelic culture is Scotland, and it usually loses it by the time it is in position to annex Cymru. I propose simply integrating Cymric into Gaelic, and maybe giving Scotland a tax penalty if they take it.

i agree, waste of culture tag unless there are some more events to make it at least somehow relevant from gameplay point of view at least.

Secondly, the strange distribution between Slavonic and Romanian. The three Romanian provinces essentially cut the Slavonic area in half. Also, Wallachia, Bulgaria, and Moldova own one of each, requiring them all to have both cultures, and kind of defeating the point of having a separate Romanian culture. Furthermore, why does Byzantium have Slavonic culture? They rarely, if ever, expand in that direction.

the problem here is that some smart guy made dobruja and bujak slavonic:confused: at least bujak COULD be greek (if look back in history pre-1300's, even that would be pushing it...). this is something that always bothers me when i see it:mad: there shall be at least 5 romanian provinces( and from gameplay perspectives there shall be at least a couple more tied to events, based on conditions).
byz with slavonic makes perfect sense, especially since this is an "ahistorical" byzhantum entirely...

Thirdly, Settled Turcoman vs. Nomadic Turcoman. Every nation that has one of them as accepted has the other and they seem to be scattered about, hampering the various GH revolters such as Kazan and Crimea, since they only get one of those. Maybe some sort of event-based conflict between nomadic turcomen and the settled ones? Have event options to make you choose between which of the two cultures you will favor, leading you to either get more troops (make the nomadic provinces high-manpower) or more money (by concentrating tax in the settled areas).

agree, and about 10 provinces or more there need optional events to change cultures based on who owns them( and the date at wich they do).

Fourthly, what is up with Bedouin? It seems to be randomly scattered about Arabic areas. It seems like it could be a similar dynamic to the settled vs. nomadic turcomen though. Hmm... event sequence ideas...
this one actually sense as it is, if play any of this nations past 1550's and al andalus goes shiite, to convert them is quiet impossible(events change them back to sunni) this i guess represents that the area is quiet hard to control. there are similar matters with tunis/tunisia/cyrenica, but event related only.

Fifthly, the Mongol culture is divided into two sections - one near China, and the other in the Il-Khanate. Furthermore, it is divided into two by Uighur, which is also a somewhat mongol-like culture.

Sixthly, the random spot of Malay culture in Champa territory (southern Vietnam).

Seventhly, Taiwan, as well as all of Zimbabwe, have Unique culture. This is made even more peculiar by the fact that Zimbabwe has Shona as its state culture.

Eighthly, Quiang. What is it supposed to represent, and what is its point? It appears in one province only, and is not a state culture for anyone.

I am not criticizing anything, was just curious if there was/is a point behind those specific decisions that I seem to be missing.

those ones are as such(very odd in some cases:D) becouse this area has not yet been completed other then strenghten ai files. china has a few events but can easilly annex all asia even on very hard settings and nevermind how many cores/culture it has or not.:D
 

LordInsane

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Cymric has that event that, if you fulfill certain requirements, gives you Cymric as a state culture.
 

Anazagar

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And with beduin caliphate has event chain that allows gradual conversion of some provinces to arabic
 

MattyG

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As I've had a lull in the workload at the university, I decided to revisit those Britannia events I have been working on

Looking forward to including them in 2.0

and re-discovered how strange the cultural layout in Interregnum seems to be. This is just a thread to comment on them, and possibly find out why they are that way.

There are some oddities, or some that may appear odd from a modern perspective. But here is where we can debate them and make changes.

Firstly, Cymric. Why is it its own culture, rather than being part of Gaelic? If Eire controls it, it becomes Gaelic anyways. The only other country with Gaelic culture is Scotland, and it usually loses it by the time it is in position to annex Cymru. I propose simply integrating Cymric into Gaelic, and maybe giving Scotland a tax penalty if they take it.

As long as we have tags to spare I think Cymric is justified, and as pointed out above, it is possible to get Cymric culture (ditto Sardinian and a few others).

Secondly, the strange distribution between Slavonic and Romanian. The three Romanian provinces essentially cut the Slavonic area in half. Also, Wallachia, Bulgaria, and Moldova own one of each, requiring them all to have both cultures, and kind of defeating the point of having a separate Romanian culture. Furthermore, why does Byzantium have Slavonic culture? They rarely, if ever, expand in that direction.

Byzantium used to rule all that area, and whenever I play it I certainly go for those provinces. Why not, when you have many of the cores and the right culture?

Originally, the Romanian provinces were Slavonic culture, until people who cared (probably mostly Romanians) argued for them to be Romanian instead of Slavonic.

To date, no one has asked for the other Slavonic culture provinces to be made something else. When they do, people can comment and changes can be made.

But these things can open a real can of worms. Culture, especially in the Balkans, is a pretty sensitive topic and I don't want any flame wars erupting in this forum.

Thirdly, Settled Turcoman vs. Nomadic Turcoman. Every nation that has one of them as accepted has the other and they seem to be scattered about, hampering the various GH revolters such as Kazan and Crimea, since they only get one of those. Maybe some sort of event-based conflict between nomadic turcomen and the settled ones? Have event options to make you choose between which of the two cultures you will favor, leading you to either get more troops (make the nomadic provinces high-manpower) or more money (by concentrating tax in the settled areas).

Interesting ideas on the cultural conflict, although I don't think it needs to be the situation, no more than between any other two cultural groups in the game.

The Turcomen represent a plethora of semi-related cultural groups, some of which were nomadic and some of which were settled. This is the closest association we could find that made some sense and has been broadly given the things up by a number of semi-educated commentators on various fora. While all of the local states end up being able to rule them (they are used to be ruled by someone and nationalism hasn't arrived here yet) not all states get Turcomen cultures, Byzantium doesn't, nor Genoa hell-bent on WC and so on.

However, I agree that perhaps the Cossacks, for example, might be able to gain nomadic and not settled, perhaps through lifestyle-related cultural similarities perhaps, to make the division make more sense.

Finally, it is partly for flavour. The old 'altai' culture spreading across millions of square kms was not only inaccurate as a name, but bland.

Fourthly, what is up with Bedouin? It seems to be randomly scattered about Arabic areas. It seems like it could be a similar dynamic to the settled vs. nomadic turcomen though. Hmm... event sequence ideas..
.

Bedouin represent the nomadic peoples of the desert regions. As with the turcomen, not a single language group, but for our purposes a single tag will suffice.

Fifthly, the Mongol culture is divided into two sections - one near China, and the other in the Il-Khanate. Furthermore, it is divided into two by Uighur, which is also a somewhat mongol-like culture.

Historically appropriate. The mongols and the Uighurs are not so similar then or now. And the Mongols moved west and were essentially divided. We have proposed that Mongol culture flourished a little more in the west than traditionally, even though they were not as successful militarily (not having captured Baghdad.)
Sixthly, the random spot of Malay culture in Champa territory (southern Vietnam).

Request of AhmedAA. Can be revised.

Seventhly, Taiwan, as well as all of Zimbabwe, have Unique culture. This is made even more peculiar by the fact that Zimbabwe has Shona as its state culture.

Thanks, I'll review that one. Probably a transcription error for the Shona thing.

Eighthly, Quiang. What is it supposed to represent, and what is its point? It appears in one province only, and is not a state culture for anyone.

Look up Qiang culture on the internet. Still alive today, despite the ongoing Han attempts to wipe out every other culture, including Tibetan.

Thanks for all these comments.

We especially need to work out what to do with Slavonic, to my mind the most complicated and senstitive cultural matter remaining.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(15247)

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Originally, the Romanian provinces were Slavonic culture, until people who cared (probably mostly Romanians) argued for them to be Romanian instead of Slavonic.

:mad:

i guess you never took my advice and went on studying the history books in a similar manner as you did with the polish ones...

"argued" it is a word here that implies....ignorance...sorry to be blunt but that's what it is:(.in europe(99 percent of it), unlike in canda and the US where the NATIVE popupation has been whiped out ALMOST after european arrival, most national identities go WAY back and came to be genrally from various form of ASSIMILATION that took in some cases many hundred of years...

in short, the origins of of romanian culture AND language has not much to do at all with ANY of the slavic tribes. the only hostorical ties to any of those that can be found is to the bulgarians and that ONLY in an administrative form for about 200 years where the the RULE of governing was that romanian and bulgarian "monarchs" must ALTERNATE (forgat their given name right now) . call it a dual monarchy if you wish.

during the roman empire, those have invested HEAVILLY into present day romanian lands mainlly becouse it provided them with a great defense agaisnt the EVER increasing pressure from the various mongol invasions(along the carpathian mountains+ danube as the second line of defense). the local population has adopted the roman's way of life( check roman policy here that has been documented). unlike MOST of the other lands rome has CONQUERED, and wich were ruled as various type of vassals, in present day romania, for a FEW hundred years, the romans have PROMOTED ACTIVE INTERMARRIAGE and increase number of SETTLEMENTS.

during roman times, the actual romanian "proper" was composed of walachia and most of today's transilvania. moldova was not part of it becouse if composed the "free tribes", an area that maintained its cultural ties to PRE-mongol times.

MANY people seem to forget that the slavic nationalities in general have been developed at the same time as romanians were. the migrating tribes from east mixed with local population in same manner the romans did with the daco-gets(the people north of danube).even after the roman empire collapsed and retreated south, romanian lands were STILL keeping roman governors due to own will. easy to understand why.

as a last reminder: romanian and slavic are DISTINCT from each other. all those national cultural , present-day nationalities, have been developed in THOSE times in DIFFRENT manner. this is not an issue of national pride( slavic, romanians, greeks they all people after all you know...) but rather of factual evolution.
btw , any LINGUIST will tell you that romanian language is 80%latin with 20% slavic influence, wich came to be in past 500 years due to obvious proximity to slavs.
 
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unmerged(1047)

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And hence begins the much-disliked flame war.

Sometimes I'm glad my people mostly came from western Europe where most of this has already been hashed out on these forums (or in the game as it originally was). There's only one province in vanilla that I disagree with, for example, and that only in the late game.
 

chefkoch

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I wondered myself to find a flemish culture. Thats no own culture, no own language and not even a variety of dutch, its just a dialect.


There's only one province in vanilla that I disagree with, for example, and that only in the late game.

I disagree with one in early game. Lorraine should have german culture until 16th or 17th century. In 1550 only three cities had a french majority and in 1871, big parts of Lorraine were still german. Alsace had to this time still a german majority but in-game, both are french.
 
Last edited:

MattyG

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@ beregic

You are pissed off for no reason. I said "provinces". I was talking about the game set-up, not the world we live in. In the original Aberration that this was built on the Romanian EU2 provinces were Slavonic EU2 culture.

You argued/debated/requested Romanian culture.

I implemented that change. Moldova, Rumelia and Wallachia are now Romanian.

I did not say that the real regions these represented were at any time Slavonic culture or that Romanian culture is part of Slavonic culture. You need to differentiate between in-game uses of the word "province" and "culture" and real-world references to these things.

I am well-aware that Romanian is a romance (latin-based) langauge, as are French, Spanish, Portugese and Italian.

@chefkoch

Culture needs to be defined somehow, especially in a game that has large provinces with many possible candidates. There is a thread in this forum where I define it for Interregnum (only). Culture in Interregnum is that of the ruling elites, from town mayors to princes.

So, for Lorraine, it was decided some time ago that the ruling/welathy families we predominantly French in 1419, but it can change to German culture (although, as I stand here, I don't know if that event was ever written ...). Lorraine isn't well-developed as a country. It is open for more quality work to be done . :)

Also, we don't have Flemish culture in Interregnum, or Dutch for that matter. But, as of 1.08, we will have Frisian culture.
 
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unmerged(15247)

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@ beregic

I'm confused.

You argued/debated/requested Romanian culture.

I implemented that change. Moldova, Rumelia and Wallachia are now Romanian.
.

sounds as you did ME a favour? that is not the case at all;)
above quoted your remark, please understand that this is not s favour at all but rather a fact, as i explained above.
and yes the vanilla map(and agceep) has the right cultures all around , at least as compared with ANY other mod;)

this was not an issue to argue about in first place, but all is good in love and war no?:)
 

Toio

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@ beregic

You are pissed off for no reason. I said "provinces". I was talking about the game set-up, not the world we live in. In the original Aberration that this was built on the Romanian EU2 provinces were Slavonic EU2 culture.

You argued/debated/requested Romanian culture.

I implemented that change. Moldova, Rumelia and Wallachia are now Romanian.

I did not say that the real regions these represented were at any time Slavonic culture or that Romanian culture is part of Slavonic culture. You need to differentiate between in-game uses of the word "province" and "culture" and real-world references to these things.

I am well-aware that Romanian is a romance (latin-based) langauge, as are French, Spanish, Portugese and Italian.

@chefkoch

Culture needs to be defined somehow, especially in a game that has large provinces with many possible candidates. There is a thread in this forum where I define it for Interregnum (only). Culture in Interregnum is that of the ruling elites, from town mayors to princes.

So, for Lorraine, it was decided some time ago that the ruling/welathy families we predominantly French in 1419, but it can change to German culture (although, as I stand here, I don't know if that event was ever written ...). Lorraine isn't well-developed as a country. It is open for more quality work to be done . :)

Also, we don't have Flemish culture in Interregnum, or Dutch for that matter. But, as of 1.08, we will have Frisian culture.

your Lorraine statement is silly, .........if the rulers where french , the culture is french ??.........then better make England German culture as they had german kings from Hanover who could speak no english at all
 

MattyG

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your Lorraine statement is silly, .........if the rulers where french , the culture is french ??.........then better make England German culture as they had german kings from Hanover who could speak no english at all

That would be true if I had said "rulers", but did not. I said "ruling elites" - the people who make the decisions and rule from the manors to the villuages to the towns.

Culture in Interregnum does NOT represent the majority by population. If that's the way it happened, then all New World provinces would need to remain native in most cases, and all of southern France in vanilla would be Occitan culture right up until 1820 (as the majority spoke Occitan, and only the ruling elites used French language and adopted the laws and manners of the French).

Now, for the most part, the common people and the ruling elites share a culture, but it isn't always the case, and when push comes to shove, the peasants neither push nor shove.
 
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Slavick3000

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Yay, the forum is alive!
For now, until someone is willing to hash out Greater Romania, I feel we should align the provinces to the primary cultures of their owners. So the two Bulgarian provinces would be Slavonic, with Bulgaria having only Slavonic as an accepted culture. Moldova and Wallachia would have the four provinces they own between them be Romanian, and both be exclusively Romanian for state cultures.
The current situation gives those nations too great of a cultural sphere, and doesn't do too much in differentiating Romanian and Slavonic.

I think my Britannia events might play around with a possible expansion of Cymric. I like the idea of it as a pre-Norman English culture.

I have not explored the Turcomen events too well yet, so don't have anything to say there.

The Caliphate Bedouin events seem pretty good, but I think could be made more generalized - i.e. have a set of events per province, and give anyone that owns it (within limits) different random and semi-random events depending on tech, religion, and slider settings. (At lower land levels, integrating the Bedouins into your army would increase quality, while decreasing it once you reach higher land tech, also increase the consequences of re-settling them into Arabic).
 

Toio

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That would be true if I had said "rulers", but did not. I said "ruling elites" - the people who make the decisions and rule from the manors to the villuages to the towns.

Culture in Interregnum does NOT represent the majority by population. If that's the way it happened, then all New World provinces would need to remain native in most cases, and all of southern France in vanilla would be Occitan culture right up until 1820 (as the majority spoke Occitan, and only the ruling elites used French language and adopted the laws and manners of the French).

Now, for the most part, the common people and the ruling elites share a culture, but it isn't always the case, and when push comes to shove, the peasants neither push nor shove.

thats not true either, as the first non-italian area/state not to use LATIN by its elites and kings was portugal in 1296.
as for occitan , its still used today even though the french government still have an "ethnic cleansing" policy of its historic langauges, be them, occitan, savoyard, breton and gascon.
actually I nearly bought an occitan- english dictionary in 2006

But this is fantasy MOD, so the discussion is irrelevant
 

unmerged(15247)

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@ beregic

You are pissed off for no reason. I said "provinces". I was talking about the game set-up, not the world we live in. In the original Aberration that this was built on the Romanian EU2 provinces were Slavonic EU2 culture.

You argued/debated/requested Romanian culture.

I implemented that change. Moldova, Rumelia and Wallachia are now Romanian.

I did not say that the real regions these represented were at any time Slavonic culture or that Romanian culture is part of Slavonic culture. You need to differentiate between in-game uses of the word "province" and "culture" and real-world references to these things.

I am well-aware that Romanian is a romance (latin-based) langauge, as are French, Spanish, Portugese and Italian.

no worries, i still love you:D

yes the original aberation was totally off there for some reason(did not play that original mod or i do not remeber the set-up, so i do not know how it was implemented). but now we all know so no need to debate this more once at least bujak is romanian as well:D. dobroja could be a bunch of diffrent cultures based on anyone's interpretations.
GREAT work otherwise. i understand that it is never too easy to please everyone:)
 

Toio

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no worries, i still love you:D

yes the original aberation was totally off there for some reason(did not play that original mod or i do not remeber the set-up, so i do not know how it was implemented). but now we all know so no need to debate this more once at least bujak is romanian as well:D. dobroja could be a bunch of diffrent cultures based on anyone's interpretations.
GREAT work otherwise. i understand that it is never too easy to please everyone:)

in the year in question , dobroja was a thraco-bulgarian culture

Anyway, there seems to be confusion in the levels of culture that is mentioned here, ( by all)
to me Slavonic is on the same level as Germanic and Romance (italy , spain, france and portugal). so what we have in EU2 is confusing, granted there is not enough cultures to justify a true picture,
but your mod could have
croat which is croatian , slovenian
Serb which is serbian, bosnian and montegrian
bulgarian which would reflect very deep southern slavs ..............my opinion only
 

MattyG

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thats not true either, as the first non-italian area/state not to use LATIN by its elites and kings was portugal in 1296.
as for occitan , its still used today even though the french government still have an "ethnic cleansing" policy of its historic langauges, be them, occitan, savoyard, breton and gascon.
actually I nearly bought an occitan- english dictionary in 2006

But this is fantasy MOD, so the discussion is irrelevant

No it isn't irrelevant, and it is no more a fantasy mod than vanilla or AGCEEP.

Culture has to be defined for the game in some way.

Language is only part of it, at least here. Then there are commonly held laws, race (or the perception of it) and traditional animosities to consider.

Occitan is still used today ... precisely my point, which is why the language spoken by the common people is no use to us as the yardstick by which we measure the culture of a province as defined in the parameters of EU2.
 

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in the year in question , dobroja was a thraco-bulgarian culture

Anyway, there seems to be confusion in the levels of culture that is mentioned here, ( by all)
to me Slavonic is on the same level as Germanic and Romance (italy , spain, france and portugal). so what we have in EU2 is confusing, granted there is not enough cultures to justify a true picture,
but your mod could have
croat which is croatian , slovenian
Serb which is serbian, bosnian and montegrian
bulgarian which would reflect very deep southern slavs ..............my opinion only

I really want to have this cleared up as much as possible.

Every province can have events that change its culture, should a different ruling group take over and promote one group over another.

We have these for Pommeranian provinces (begin Polish and can go German) and many others.

So, better to determine what a province is at 1419, and then which cultures it can become, depending on who owns it.