Peacetime Industry

[piratefish]

Playing my first ever game in IC as the U.S.

Can anyone please explain, briefly, the advantages of selecting a peacetime economy rather than the wartime economy?

At first blush, it doen't even seem to be a viable option when compared to the immediate and significant benefits of selecting a wartime economy.

I would be very interested to hear what some of you have learned.

 

[azedalis]

I feel the only countries to benefit from a peacetime economy would be coutries like China and Japan who goto war very early in the game. The longer it takes the country goto war the better wartime economy is. I guess also any country who decides to wait on gaining this technology...the close you get it to when you goto war the more valuable getting peacetime economy. But to me the bonuses either way are good for you....that waiting is only a viable option for those who are either research only techs with a positive research modifier or people with few tech slots and need to research quickly other techs.

 

[Sillsallad]

15% increase in researchspeed for peacetime economy seems a bit low to some people in here, but if you do the math and add those 15% and use them wisely in your research for 6,5 years until the war starts you realise you will fight with many more technologies than you would have if you go for wartime.

I used to do wartime with Germany mostly because of the blueprint, but my experience (from sandboxtesting) is that the 15% researchadvantage gives me about one year of research ahead with peacetime if I use the same order and teams as with wartime. That year means that I can have refined fuel, materials and production planning with inf.5 and every single naval, aerial, armour tech and every single doctrine in every field available with that industrylevel researched, and researchspeed of 235% by sept.1 1939. The army is never a problem, whatever tech I chose manpower is always the bottleneck when it's time to go to war.

As the US, all you get with wartime is some extra IC to play with before the war breaks out, IMO it's hardly enough to build anything anyway so I still prefer to wait until -41, have the edge in technology and massproduce without having to upgrade a zillion divisions or sit around with old ships. USA gets ridiculous amounts of IC once attacked so you can build just about whatever you want in whatever quantity you like, with the researchadvantage you will already have massproduction and productionplanning by that time and a vast pool of manpower ready to take up arms.

 

[piratefish]

15% increase in researchspeed for peacetime economy seems a bit low to some people in here, but if you do the math and add those 15% and use them wisely in your research for 6,5 years until the war starts you realise you will fight with many more technologies than you would have if you go for wartime.

I started my game over as the U.S. after reading your post. Just wanted to test your policy for myself. It is August of 1934 and here is what I have so far:

1. I have a whopping 10 IC available to me. I have split that IC 3 to Supplies (gives me a tiny surplus each day), and 7 to Consumer Goods (a total of 26.39 is needed).
2. I am running deficits in 3 of my resources: -37.6 Energy, -7.2 Metal, and -13.6 money each day.
3. Only 3 of my 10 tech teams are progressing at 100%, the other 7 are gaining 0.20% to 0.60% progress each day.
4. I am producing (and have produced) absolutely NOTHING in 18 months.
5. My research speed is 123%.

Based on this data, I am beginning to think that Peacetime IC was a HUGE mistake!

So what if I get research speeds of 150% to 200% if I can only keep 3 or 4 of my teams funded, I'm running resource deficits, and I can't build ANYTHING - not even additional IC or infrastructure?

But at least my research speed will be incredibly high.

As the US, all you get with wartime is some extra IC to play with before the war breaks out, IMO it's hardly enough to build anything anyway so I still prefer to wait until -41, have the edge in technology and massproduce without having to upgrade a zillion divisions or sit around with old ships.

God, I can sure use a few extra IC right about now. I would like to actually be able to pay my research teams and hit a break even point on my resources. I won't even be selfish and ask for enough IC to build anything until 1940 when all of the production events kick in for the U.S.

USA gets ridiculous amounts of IC once attacked so you can build just about whatever you want in whatever quantity you like, with the researchadvantage you will already have massproduction and productionplanning by that time and a vast pool of manpower ready to take up arms.

Well, I guess if one does not mind waiting until 1941, that would be fine. Except by then Germany and the Axis will own all of Europe, the Middle East, half of Africa, and will have the Soviet Union on its knees. At which point it will still be several months before my production actually has output and I can begin to field units in the spring to summer of 1942.

And the steady trickle of U.S. forces to Spain and North Africa to exploit the "soft underbelly of Europe" will likely have to meet the full force and undivided attention of the German army that has the uncanny ability to cut through everything like a hot knife through butter.

Things aren't looking so good for the U.S. in the future, and the Peacetime Economy was a very poor decision from where I am sitting right now.

 

[Sillsallad]

You have some hard but yet fun times to look forward to

First, my calculations are based on 5 teams, I never do more than that, with my researchstyle more teams get way too ahistorical for my taste; i often see paradoxgames as kind of puzzles, what is the most effective way to play a certain nation and focus on research in IC makes 5 teams more balanced than 6-10 IMO.

I rarely get anything built before the "new deal"-events kicks in and balancing the economy is my main objective for the first years. Keep in mind that the new deal events costs lots of money so i usually build absolutely nothing besides research to save every penny to pay for the events when they comes and keep funding the research. With 10 teams research is of course more expensive and probably explains why you can't fund them.

This topic was as I understood it experiences and perhaps even some advantages from peacetime economy, it suites me and my way of playing the game, but for those who wants a steady buildup from the early years with the US, wartime economy is recommendable.

On another note, I have to ask why a person who often debate gamemechanics with arguments from historical plausibility chose to go for more teams than the techtree was designed for ending up with possibly very strange results and units in 1939. I'll give the US a try with my researchorder and see what 10 teams gives me in sept 1939, I'll be back with the results when ready.

 

[piratefish]

On another note, I have to ask why a person who often debate gamemechanics with arguments from historical plausibility chose to go for more teams than the techtree was designed for ending up with possibly very strange results and units in 1939. I'll give the US a try with my researchorder and see what 10 teams gives me in sept 1939, I'll be back with the results when ready.

Hi Sillsallad.

To be honest, I forgot to change the number of available tech team slots from my last game that I played as Germany. (I kind of got used to the 10 slots when I started playing AoD over HoI2).

I feel that the additional slots are more realistic because, as a nation, if I have the capacity to invest heavily in research, my only constraint should be funding and not the number of teams I can utilize - hence maxing out the number of tech slots. (And yes, I do realize that this undermines my complaint from above; that I am not able to fund all of my research teams. But that, I think, has more to do with the effects of selecting a Peacetime Economy that has unrealisticly limited my available IC).

As far as the ahistorical ramifications of playing with 10 tech team slots, I have yet to really experience it. I usually quit the game sometime in 1942 because things have become so imbalanced by then that most of the fun has gone out of it for me (whether playing as Germany or some other nation, but especially as Germany). And as Germany, I usually do not acheive 10 slot status until sometime in the second half of 1940...therefor it is not as much as an issue as it might be with a nation like the U.S.

But I also suspect that if the ability to increase research speed (or any other score) above 100% were dropped, playing with ten tech teams would not produce ahistorical technology advancements (nor would we have "super" units in the game). In other words, the best you could ever do or acheive is 100% of your nation's unique capacity and abilities (which would certainly be less than what is currently possible in the game now - and the maximums for each nation could always be fine tuned to ensure that results that are ridiculously ahistorical and unrealistic would be eliminated, but could still be stretched a little. Might take some extra work as a dev, but would be well worth it in terms of player enjoyability).

But that is another discussion we already beat to death in another thread.

 

[piratefish]

Okay. So I started over as the US (1933 scenario), only this time instead of selecting Peacetime Industry and Liberal Economy, I chose Wartime Industry and Military Economy. These are the only two significant differences over my previous game as the US (which I finally abandoned at the end of 1934 because it sucked too badly).

Here are the results of the new approach (with Wartime Industry and Military Economy) at the same time juncture of August, 1934:

1. I have 107 IC available instead of the measely 10 from my other game.
2. I am actually producing a run of infrastructure improvements in my top 20 or so resource rich provinces, and I am building a run of IC in my 3 highest IC concentrated provinces.
3. All of my land units (all three of them) are upgraded to my current tech level (inf 2).
4. I am running large surpluses in every one of my resources, from as little as 1.9 money per day to as much as 134.9 metal per day (the others are energy: 125.7, rares: 134.3, oil: 78.9, and supplies: 16.9 per day).
5. All 10 of my tech teams are FULLY funded, and have been since starting research (except the first few months when the US has some dissent issues and while I was waiting on the Wartime Industry to finish being researched).
6. My research speed is at 114% - only 9% slower than when I played with Peacetime/Liberal Economy (when only 30% of my teams were operating with full funding). So I am actually getting my research done more quickly.

I will let the data speak for itself as to what is the better approach.

 

[Sillsallad]

I tried playing with 10 teams as USA from 33 and it's not possible to fund them all with peacetime, therefore eliminating every advantage possibly made by the 15% researchbonus. With 10 teams I totally agree that peacetime industrial base is totally useless, but my conclusion might differ from yours because I use this evaluation as yet another strong argument for not playing with more than the 5 teams the mechanics is designed for.

The question about how many of those ahistorical situations you feel so strongly about that's caused by this choice of yours is therefore raised, keep in mind that all AI nations also gets more teams than intended creating possibly bizarre situations. With wartime industrial USA you can fund all those teams. I'll try another game with my researchorder, 10 teams and wartime to see where I stand in 1941. I'll get back with results.

 

[am300307]

Okay. So I started over as the US (1933 scenario), only this time instead of selecting Peacetime Industry and Liberal Economy, I chose Wartime Industry and Military Economy. These are the only two significant differences over my previous game as the US (which I finally abandoned at the end of 1934 because it sucked too badly).

Here are the results of the new approach (with Wartime Industry and Military Economy) at the same time juncture of August, 1934:

1. I have 107 IC available instead of the measely 10 from my other game.
2. I am actually producing a run of infrastructure improvements in my top 20 or so resource rich provinces, and I am building a run of IC in my 3 highest IC concentrated provinces.
3. All of my land units (all three of them) are upgraded to my current tech level (inf 2).
4. I am running large surpluses in every one of my resources, from as little as 1.9 money per day to as much as 134.9 metal per day (the others are energy: 125.7, rares: 134.3, oil: 78.9, and supplies: 16.9 per day).
5. All 10 of my tech teams are FULLY funded, and have been since starting research (except the first few months when the US has some dissent issues and while I was waiting on the Wartime Industry to finish being researched).
6. My research speed is at 114% - only 9% slower than when I played with Peacetime/Liberal Economy (when only 30% of my teams were operating with full funding). So I am actually getting my research done more quickly.

I will let the data speak for itself as to what is the better approach.

Lol you are playing with 10 tech teams? IMO that is very unfair. Try playing with 5 and you will have a balanced game.

 

[piratefish]

Lol you are playing with 10 tech teams? IMO that is very unfair. Try playing with 5 and you will have a balanced game.

I've played both ways and prefer the 10 team option when playing as any country other than Germany. With Germany being as strong as it is, the Allied countries need any and every advantage they can get. Typically I play with no more than 5 to 7 teams, depending on which nation I select to play.

I probably will not play the US with 10 teams again, as this is my first game playing as the US I am still learning all the nuances managing that particular nation. I do agree that for them, 10 teams is a bit over the top as I am learning by 1940. I not only have the 10 teams, but my research speed goes back and forth in the 160% to 170% range as I research my way, one tech at a time, through the industrial techs ( a self-imposed limit to keep things from getting totally crazy).

 

[am300307]

You should just play some online games if you want a real challenge, online games are the most fun/challenging games i ever played. Xcept its very hard to get good/reliable people to show up, and have reasonable game times. Games that play 1 or 2 days a week suck thoe and if someone has a slow internet/computer is makes everything slower. Single player is soo much faster =)

p.s we joined in the same month/year and i have more posts than you

p.s.s whats up with the German flag if you live in America?

 

[piratefish]

You should just play some online games if you want a real challenge, online games are the most fun/challenging games i ever played. Xcept its very hard to get good/reliable people to show up, and have reasonable game times. Games that play 1 or 2 days a week suck thoe and if someone has a slow internet/computer is makes everything slower. Single player is soo much faster =)

I have thought about it, but never seriously. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but also because I am not sure how it works. What if I need to pause the game for a while to study and plan while the other players have things laid out and just want time to advance quickly for a while (or vice versa)?

I like the freedom of being able to control the tempo of my games and being flexible as to when I play. I think I would just end up pissing a bunch of people off, and I am sure I would get a little pissed off myself from time to time.

I just don't have the patience, I suppose. Maybe if I knew more about how it worked, too. (e.g. I like to use the NATO style counters, will I be forced to use sprites if that's what other players want, and how many different rules do we have to agree upon, including which scenario to play?)

p.s we joined in the same month/year and i have more posts than you

You're my hero.

p.s.s whats up with the German flag if you live in America?

Because, up until very recently, I prefered to play the game as the Germans. That, and my family came from Germany. My great grandfather from my dad's side immigrated here a few years before WW 1. Up through my dad's generation his family remained bilingual...I was in the first generation that wasn't...just words and phrases only for my siblings and I.

If it weren't for the French and English blood on my mom's side, I would have pure German blood running through my veins (at least from a genealogical perspective - I am, afterall, and American by birth and at heart).