Peace in Oct 1939, now what?

[Imgran]

No, he thought the Allies dont have the stomach for it. He thought he will get away like earlier. He did want war with the Soviets of course but a few years later when Germany was prepared.

Not sure I agree with that either. Again, someone who doesn't want war with the Western Allies isn't as eager to defy two major world powers.

The Western Allies assumed Hitler didn't want war. But I think that's a poor reading of the man. He did want war with the West. I think he just felt like the initiative was his, and he could pick the time.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Not sure I agree with that either. Again, someone who doesn't want war with the Western Allies isn't as eager to defy two major world powers.

The Western Allies assumed Hitler didn't want war. But I think that's a poor reading of the man. He did want war with the West. I think he just felt like the initiative was his, and he could pick the time.

He did pick the time. More or less.

UK and Britain declared war on Germany, then sat on their hands. Still waiting to see if the Phony War was going to turn hot.

Right up until Hitler DOW'd Lux-Belgium-Nederlands and rolled through Paris.

 

[Imgran]

England and France were doing a lot more than sitting on their hands. They were months behind Germany and had to rapidly reform their armies to try and compete. That's one of the problems behind the Fall of France, French combat doctrines were experimental and had not been tested in proper military exercises. A combination of lack of unit speed and poor communication (including a very poor radio communications infrastructure) meant that they couldn't plug the gap against the advancing Germans like they had at the Battle of the Marne in the first war, where they used good contemporary communcations and rail network to successfully block the German Army.

The reason there even was a "phony war" is because England and France were desperately mobilizing and renovating their armies, and Germany was taking its time to consolidate the games it had already made.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

In the final lines of Hitler's last political will & testament, he claimed he didn't want war. It reminds me of how years later, Hanna Reitsch said, "But today in all Germany you can't find a single person who voted Adolf Hitler into power. Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the real guilt we share - THAT WE LOST." So I'm sure Hitler regretted the war at the end, just a few hours before he put a bullet in is head. No doubt.

But in reality I think most people today underestimate just how much of a warmonger Hitler really was. "Oh, that's absurd. We all know he was a total warmonger. What are you talking about?" Well, I actually don't think most people really understand.

Obscure quotes referring to his desire to once again see the splendid beast of prey flash in the eyes of the youth, gives you a clue. Anyway, Hitler actually wanted war in Sept. 1938. Chamberlain worked hard to prevent it, and when the agreement was signed in Munich, he (Hitler) was actually disappointed! His disappointment didn't last long though, as it quickly became apparent how much his popularity was boosted, immediately. -Quite a lot. So he was pleased for that, at least. But he just started plotting his next move, anyway.

He actually wanted to attack the western Allies ASAP, in the fall of 1939. Like, immediately... quickturn back west, and invade France. Late October-November time frame. His generals pleaded for him to wait (the weather was a real liability, and the Luftwaffe was an essential part of the formula for success). That time, he actually took their advice. Point is; he just couldn't wait. He never could wait, and that's why 'Das III. Reich' is just a blip on the radar screen of history, chronologically speaking.

The happiest days of his life, btw, were when he was actually fighting IN a war, himself. He loved it. And he really did believe in this 'Triumph of the Will' zealous-jingoist philosophy... that if you just believe hard enough, you can prevail. So let's all believe -really hard- and get to war, ASAP. -That was basically how he thought. He really believed that sheer fanatical willpower & unbridled warlust would lead to victory.


Sample Quotes:

"Humanity accomplishes a step up every 700 years and the ultimate aim is the coming of the sons of God. All created forces will be concentrated in a new species. It will be infinitely superior to modern man.”
[...]
“Those who see in National Socialism, nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it…It is more even than a religion. It is the will to create mankind anew”.
[...]
“The old beliefs will be brought back to honor again. The whole secret knowledge of nature, of the divine, the demonic. We will wash off the Christian veneer and bring out a religion peculiar to our race.”

-A.H.

...the man was essentially out if his mind. But he was functional, so it wasn't clear to most -- until it was far too late. One thing he did know, is that he loved war.


The more you study the mind of Hitler, and learn the obscure details of what was going on behind the scenes (diplomatically for example), the more you'll find it impossible to ever assert that, "Hitler didn't want war". -That was the only thing he wanted. Or at least, certainly the main thing. And again, at the end, in his final testament he just couldn't resist trying to cover up the one thing that he KNEW -deep down- was, without any question, the modus operandi for his very existence. But, having failed in his ventures, his last act was an attempt to retract it all -- and play the victim (of "international jewry"). Pathetic.

 

[Easy-Kill]

England and France were doing a lot more than sitting on their hands. They were months behind Germany and had to rapidly reform their armies to try and compete. That's one of the problems behind the Fall of France, French combat doctrines were experimental and had not been tested in proper military exercises. A combination of lack of unit speed and poor communication (including a very poor radio communications infrastructure) meant that they couldn't plug the gap against the advancing Germans like they had at the Battle of the Marne in the first war, where they used good contemporary communcations and rail network to successfully block the German Army.

The reason there even was a "phony war" is because England and France were desperately mobilizing and renovating their armies, and Germany was taking its time to consolidate the games it had already made.

It wasn't just the armies that the western allies were mobilising, but the industry to support them. The Allied (especially British) armies of 1914 and 1915 suffered spectacularly due to a huge shortage of war material. In particular Britain had few large field guns guns and no factories to produce the shells, it was set up to support a colonial army in minor actions. In 1939, Britain knew that it would be the principal supplier of the Anglo-French forces and had once again begun that industrial expansion to be that actor.

 

[Easy-Kill]

"But today in all Germany you can't find a single person who voted Adolf Hitler into power. Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the real guilt we share - THAT WE LOST."

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. I know a lot of Germans, many of whom are judgemental of my military involvement but none who I know would consider stating the above.

 

[Mder1]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. I know a lot of Germans, many of whom are judgemental of my military involvement but none who I know would consider stating the above.

Because they don't share the sentiment of a Nazi?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. I know a lot of Germans, many of whom are judgemental of my military involvement but none who I know would consider stating the above.

This applies to Hanna Reitschs generation, not our.

 

[bz249]

Because they don't share the sentiment of a Nazi?

And they did lost a war

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

And they did lost a war

Which was a good thing for Germany.

 

[bz249]

Which was a good thing for Germany.

Kinda... the optimal solution would have been a Weimar Republic with some legitimacy. But probably it was impossible to avoid it (even with the wars lost quite a few Gründerzeit families were able to retain their wealth well into the 21st century).

 

[Easy-Kill]

Because they don't share the sentiment of a Nazi?

Hello, I'd like to have an argument.

 

[AllThat4Nothing]

I dont know you who are you again ? I speak only with people I know.

lmao... wow.

Wow.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

lmao... wow.

Wow.

You need a coffee.

 

[AllThat4Nothing]

I do.

 

[George Parr]

Not sure I agree with that either. Again, someone who doesn't want war with the Western Allies isn't as eager to defy two major world powers.

The Western Allies assumed Hitler didn't want war. But I think that's a poor reading of the man. He did want war with the West. I think he just felt like the initiative was his, and he could pick the time.

There is a difference between not wanting war and not wanting war at this moment, which is what the comment was about.

Hitler did indeed not want war with the Allies when he attacked Poland. He was furious with Ribbentrop when the British did declare war. War with the West was part of the plan, but not at that exact moment. The idea was to bring down one enemy at a time, not face the risk of a two front war. And there was quite a big of risk, because not only was Germany significantly outnumbered in the west while the polish campaign was going on (though Britain and France weren't ready for big offensives), but the military also didn't have the ammunition to fight a prolonged war either, one of THE reasons why they did their utmost to convince Hitler not to attack France right after Poland fell.

Earlier on, when the war was still quite a bit away, Hitler didn't even have a specific idea whether to strike first towards the east or west, it was all supposed to depend on the circumstances. Once it was decided to strike in the east first, it was more clearly defined. Take down Poland, then beat France and put Britian out of the war, and when those are dealt with, go after the Soviet Union. All in order, and never at the same time.

The Soviet Union wasn't supposed to be attacked before the west had been beaten. That only really changed when Britain didn't agree to peace. Hitler got the impression that British moral had improved tremendously, and that they were hoping for the US or the Soviet Union to get involved. Hitler thus decided to quickly bring down the Soviets, because in doing so it would remove the last remaining possibly ally for the British on the continent, while also causing Japan to be a bigger threat in the pacific, leading to the USA having to keep its focus in that area. This was supposed to remove all options for the British and force them into a peace. The problem with that idea was obviously that attacking the Soviets created exactly the situation the British were hoping for. The only way for that plan to work out, would have been an immediate Soviet collapse in a matter of weeks.


I think the more interesting what-if moment would be summer/autumn 1940 and Britain accepting peace. With the victory over the allies, "honour" would have been restored, the loss in WW1 been avenged, and Germany would be the main force on the continent. Would there have been an attack on the Soviets afterwards? I guess so, because that was the ultimate goal anyway, but in theory it could have led to a slightly different development of the war-plans. Autumn 1939 doesn't really offer that option, because nothing had really been solved yet. The threat in the east was still around, and the allies hadn't been put into their place yet, leaving the possibility of a two-front war intact.

 

[No idea]

Let's say under the influence of an alien mind modifying beam (insert whatever reasons here) the Western Allies accept the German peace proposal in October 1939. Was there an exit strategy for Nazis to consolidate their holds, or they have to seek another conflict to keep the overheated economy running further?

Hitler was keen on making Germany a superpower, and for that he thoughthe needed space and resources. The fact that the USSR was full of slav commies was a big bonus. In short, he would have invaded the USSR sooner or later. The rearmament plans went up to 43/44. At that date the wehrmatch would be fully ready

 

[pithorr]

Hitler was keen on making Germany a superpower, and for that he thoughthe needed space and resources. The fact that the USSR was full of slav commies was a big bonus. In short, he would have invaded the USSR sooner or later. The rearmament plans went up to 43/44. At that date the wehrmatch would be fully ready

The only problem is that every one else, now aware of Hitler's plan would have been even more ready...

 

[No idea]

The only problem is that every one else, now aware of Hitler's plan would have been even more ready...

Yes. France and the UK were starting to rearm also. But that doesnt mean they would have attacked Germany or have allied with the USSR in case of a german attack. Remember we are in a scenario where the allies didnt back Poland or at least they let it fall without declaring war. In a democracy five years can be a lot of time, politically speaking.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. I know a lot of Germans, many of whom are judgemental of my military involvement but none who I know would consider stating the above.

The main thing to keep in mind about the German people of that era, who did -in fact- vote Hitler into power, is that they didn't truly realize what they were getting into. What they actually wanted, was a national revival. Climb out of the unjust hole that Versailles put them into, and begin to reclaim their rightful place on the world stage. Everything Hitler spoke/yelled about, was generally along these lines. The masses definitely saw his passion, but most (by far) never really saw his MANIA, until it was too late.

The last chance to realistically coup Hitler was leading up to the Sudetenland crisis in Sept. '38. There was a considerable faction that was preparing to do it, as soon as he invaded Czechoslovakia. These elements even reached out to the British, via diplomatic back-channels (they received no response, however -- that we know of). All this while Chamberlain was working to prevent war, ofc.

I really believe it was going to happen, too. If the talks had broken down, and Hitler got his war against the Czechs (that he actually really wanted, he was looking forward to it)... I think they were gonna take him down. There were plenty of high-level leaders in the Wehrmacht that were actually preparing to do so. But then, the Munich Agreement happened, Hitler's popularity skyrocketed instantly, and the moment had passed. Rest is history. When Poland was invaded e.g., it was real easy for the German people to believe the propaganda they were told ('WE are being attacked, and are returning fire...')

But yeah, you have to keep things in perspective. Again, the Germans just wanted to have a national revival, and become their old 'strong selves' again. But they got a LOT more than they bargained for. A lot more. OFC, if they'd actually won WWII, "it would have all been worth it", I guess. But, these are the gambles you take in life. Or, at least, the gambles Hitler took in life. Now they all hate him b/c he took those gambles & lost.

I just can't believe Zeppelinfeld is still there, and there's actually a little obscure Nazi museum nearby it. A surprisingly not-so-anti-Nazi Museum, it must be said. Go in there, and you'd almost think the 3rd Reich is still going on. But, I guess you just can't get rid of that much concrete. Probably should try, though. And get rid of the Eagle's Nest, as well. People pay homage to that place, and they've got concessions set up there. It's only a matter of time before... well, who knows. If they really want to 'turn the page' completely , they should get rid of these places. -Kinda like what the Soviets did, in Berlin. No traces. As long as someone can still go to Zeppelinfeld at night, and make a 'spiritual connection' to the past... you're not out of the woods, yet... JMHO