Peace deal problems - stealing occupied territory from third party

[Delpheus]

Be Japan and occupy the Dutch East Indies, but the war doesn't end because you can't get to Europe to kill the overlord. A different war starts and Germany occupies the Netherlands, and in the pace deal, magic - they claim the Dutch East Indies, and the Japanese get no say in it.

This is the main reason I stopped playing. I saw the patch today and hoped maybe some minor fix might possibly have been done to the peace deal system. But the most flawed and game breaking part of the game still has not been touched.

I went to EU4 instead. In EU4, you CAN NOT make a peace deal to take a province occupied by another power, even if you are in the same war! This means, if I start a war and occupy a subject nation, then a third party attacks the overlord, they're not getting the provinces that I occupy, the game does not allow that kind of cheating because it is MY OCCUPATION, NOT THEIRS.

EU4 is a superior game for that reason alone. I still hope that HOI4 might change someday, maybe HOI5 if not, but this stupid magical insanity of a peace deal system makes for a very horrible experience especially in multiplayer.

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

Be Japan and occupy the Dutch East Indies, but the war doesn't end because you can't get to Europe to kill the overlord. A different war starts and Germany occupies the Netherlands, and in the pace deal, magic - they claim the Dutch East Indies, and the Japanese get no say in it.

This is the main reason I stopped playing. I saw the patch today and hoped maybe some minor fix might possibly have been done to the peace deal system. But the most flawed and game breaking part of the game still has not been touched.

I went to EU4 instead. In EU4, you CAN NOT make a peace deal to take a province occupied by another power, even if you are in the same war! This means, if I start a war and occupy a subject nation, then a third party attacks the overlord, they're not getting the provinces that I occupy, the game does not allow that kind of cheating because it is MY OCCUPATION, NOT THEIRS.

EU4 is a superior game for that reason alone. I still hope that HOI4 might change someday, maybe HOI5 if not, but this stupid magical insanity of a peace deal system makes for a very horrible experience especially in multiplayer.

Well...EU4 has a totally different focus than HoI4. Military conflicts are basically barebones and simply won by just let attrition deprive the enemy of Manpower in mere months. While the diplomacy especially and economic system to a degree are superior.
Anyways...there are mods for this that solve that for you.

Either

a) Player Led Peaceconference
b) Seperate Peace Conference
c) Transfer States

Each may be considered cheating but all work and may help. Depends in how you use them.

 

[Ironside112]

Be Japan and occupy the Dutch East Indies, but the war doesn't end because you can't get to Europe to kill the overlord. A different war starts and Germany occupies the Netherlands, and in the pace deal, magic - they claim the Dutch East Indies, and the Japanese get no say in it.

This is the main reason I stopped playing. I saw the patch today and hoped maybe some minor fix might possibly have been done to the peace deal system. But the most flawed and game breaking part of the game still has not been touched.

I went to EU4 instead. In EU4, you CAN NOT make a peace deal to take a province occupied by another power, even if you are in the same war! This means, if I start a war and occupy a subject nation, then a third party attacks the overlord, they're not getting the provinces that I occupy, the game does not allow that kind of cheating because it is MY OCCUPATION, NOT THEIRS.

EU4 is a superior game for that reason alone. I still hope that HOI4 might change someday, maybe HOI5 if not, but this stupid magical insanity of a peace deal system makes for a very horrible experience especially in multiplayer.

I made a suggestion thread about this, check it out if you want, any traction would be helpful for at least a response https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-fun-now-with-pictures.1421176/#post-26915224

 

[Delpheus]

Well...EU4 has a totally different focus than HoI4. Military conflicts are basically barebones and simply won by just let attrition deprive the enemy of Manpower in mere months. While the diplomacy especially and economic system to a degree are superior.
Anyways...there are mods for this that solve that for you.

Either

a) Player Led Peaceconference
b) Seperate Peace Conference
c) Transfer States

Each may be considered cheating but all work and may help. Depends in how you use them.

Yes, EU4 has a different focus, but that has nothing to do with this glaring issue.

Do you think its fair for a country to steal territory from another power that actually fought for and currently occupies it?

Look at it this way, realistically and historically, do you really think Japan would give up the Dutch East Indies after bleeding for it and occupying it for its resources their nation desperately needs? Why should Germany get to intervene and magically force the Japanese out and the Japanese get to do NOTHING about it? Why can't I say FU Germany, MY TROOPS ARE HERE, come and take it if you want it!?

I get it, it's a game, it's not perfect.
But if EU4 can do it, why not HOI4?

And you're mistaken, I'm not talking about mods. I'm talking about changes the devs need to make to the base game to improve the experiance, especially for multiplayer. This is a change that they have already implemented in one of their own games and it's baffling that the same is not present in HOI4. I once though paradox was just terrible at diplomacy and peace deals, but then after I played EU4 I became very confused about why the same basic concepts don't apply in the 1940s.

It's common sense. You should not be able to ask for territory occupied by another nation, or at the very least, a different faction. We may be fighting the same enemy, but if we are not really "true allies", I am in my own different faction, on the other side of the world, occupying with my own troops something way beyond your reach and you contributed nothing, I should not be forced to give it up to you. This is not a concept that should be exclusive to EU4 because it can apply to any time period since the dawn of time.

 

[Delpheus]

I made a suggestion thread about this, check it out if you want, any traction would be helpful for at least a response https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-fun-now-with-pictures.1421176/#post-26915224

It's refreshing to see so many significant improvements to the peace deal system that we can only dream of, good work!

 

[Jays298]

The Germany or Italy taking the Indies and then coming into conflict with Japan is a big issue.

And the solution is really just better scripting IMO to allow the Indies to be partitioned or be in Japan's sphere of Influence. Or alternatively Japan already has a war goal to get them.

It is a real historical / alt historical problem of whether a victorious Axis would seek east Asian colonies. But it seems far fetched.

AI peace conferences are pretty dumb. Italy like loves Scotland for some reason. Just one province. I had one where I puppeted Russia only for Romania to annex most of Russia.

And from the other side... Japan declaring on Germany because Germany annexed the Dutch east Indies. But this conference only happens if the UK gets conquered.

 

[Delpheus]

The Germany or Italy taking the Indies and then coming into conflict with Japan is a big issue.

And the solution is really just better scripting IMO to allow the Indies to be partitioned or be in Japan's sphere of Influence. Or alternatively Japan already has a war goal to get them.

It is a real historical / alt historical problem of whether a victorious Axis would seek east Asian colonies. But it seems far fetched.

AI peace conferences are pretty dumb. Italy like loves Scotland for some reason. Just one province. I had one where I puppeted Russia only for Romania to annex most of Russia.

And from the other side... Japan declaring on Germany because Germany annexed the Dutch east Indies. But this conference only happens if the UK gets conquered.

What I'm talking about is when Japan already occupies the DEI but can't close a peace deal because they can't reach the Netherlands, because that's another flaw in the game. In EU4, we can do 10% peace deals, if I hold just one scrap of worthless land I can still enforce some kind of peace. In HOI4, if I occupy the entire island cluster of the DEI, I can't enforce any kind of peace because I don't have the Netherlands.

So Germany attacks the Netherlands and ends the war, they get a peace deal, and they claim the DEI even though I occupy it. SO it really has nothing to do with war goals or claims, I was using this example to illustrate a flaw in the peace deal system as glaring as the sun, in that occupied provinces that YOU hold can be claimed by an outside power and there is nothing you can do to prevent and refuse this. As Japan, I DO NOT CARE if Germany THINKS they now own the DEI....it's MY troops holding those islands and they can't do anything to force me out short of a naval invasion....but the game has a magic system that completely ignores the fact that I am the one holding the territory.

This conference does not only happen if UK gets conquered. I'm talking about an actual experience I had in multiplayer where this happened. I was Japan, I rushed the DEI, I had it under my control, the German player declared on Netherlands and won, the peace deal fired, and they took my land. UK was not involved.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Unfortunately it goes beyond peace conferences, who gets control of land in war is also busted. Along with the AI's failings how war score is calculated and applied is one of the games most obvious flaws. It can and sometimes does lead to game-ruining outcomes, and in other cases once you know how badly designed it is you can abuse it to fish tons of war score by repeatedly forcing an AI division off a high score province. Which "works" for the same reason USSR losing land "works" for giving it war score for "occupation".

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

Yes, EU4 has a different focus, but that has nothing to do with this glaring issue.

Do you think its fair for a country to steal territory from another power that actually fought for and currently occupies it?

Look at it this way, realistically and historically, do you really think Japan would give up the Dutch East Indies after bleeding for it and occupying it for its resources their nation desperately needs? Why should Germany get to intervene and magically force the Japanese out and the Japanese get to do NOTHING about it? Why can't I say FU Germany, MY TROOPS ARE HERE, come and take it if you want it!?

I get it, it's a game, it's not perfect.
But if EU4 can do it, why not HOI4?

And you're mistaken, I'm not talking about mods. I'm talking about changes the devs need to make to the base game to improve the experiance, especially for multiplayer. This is a change that they have already implemented in one of their own games and it's baffling that the same is not present in HOI4. I once though paradox was just terrible at diplomacy and peace deals, but then after I played EU4 I became very confused about why the same basic concepts don't apply in the 1940s.

It's common sense. You should not be able to ask for territory occupied by another nation, or at the very least, a different faction. We may be fighting the same enemy, but if we are not really "true allies", I am in my own different faction, on the other side of the world, occupying with my own troops something way beyond your reach and you contributed nothing, I should not be forced to give it up to you. This is not a concept that should be exclusive to EU4 because it can apply to any time period since the dawn of time.

I am NOT saying the way it is now is a good one (hah...good one ). I am just telling you several solutions to your Problem.
There is a reason I never ever play a game of Hoi4 without any of these mods. As long they are used sensible.
Example: We played an India/Japan game. Axis was at war with Allies and Commies.
Close to the brink of total destruction, we entered the war against the SU. We slugged our way beyond the Ural from the East(Japan) and the South(India) to Crimea even - saved Axis arses.
Result at Peace Conference Vanilla: Germany -> BAM Annex all. Great. Because they were able to advance when we opened the Front and they sent so many men to the slaughter that the warscore was unbeatable.
Anyways, I know this is a way more complex matter than your Problem but it shows the issues.
You can script the game for certain well defined Problems but not a "one size fits all". That's why I prefer mods for that.

And FYI as much as I would like a better diplomacy System and the like in HoI4, I think it is out of scope for the timeframe the game offers.
Foreign Politics were lacking in that period anyways.

 

[Delpheus]

I am NOT saying the way it is now is a good one (hah...good one ). I am just telling you several solutions to your Problem.
There is a reason I never ever play a game of Hoi4 without any of these mods. As long they are used sensible.
Example: We played an India/Japan game. Axis was at war with Allies and Commies.
Close to the brink of total destruction, we entered the war against the SU. We slugged our way beyond the Ural from the East(Japan) and the South(India) to Crimea even - saved Axis arses.
Result at Peace Conference Vanilla: Germany -> BAM Annex all. Great. Because they were able to advance when we opened the Front and they sent so many men to the slaughter that the warscore was unbeatable.
Anyways, I know this is a way more complex matter than your Problem but it shows the issues.
You can script the game for certain well defined Problems but not a "one size fits all". That's why I prefer mods for that.

And FYI as much as I would like a better diplomacy System and the like in HoI4, I think it is out of scope for the timeframe the game offers.
Foreign Politics were lacking in that period anyways.

I'm speaking mostly from my preference from multiplayer, meaning that mods are not an option. In single player or cooperatively I can understand how this may not seem like a big deal. When you are in multiplayer, this is game breaking...

And say what you will about diplomacy during that time period, I won't agree or disagree here, this issue isn't really about diplomacy. It's about a critical flaw in the design of the peace deal system regarding territory occupation.

It's very simply about a player being able to do something they should not be able to do, something so horrible it feels like cheating or hacking, because it's so absurd and unfair. No one should be able to claim territory that I occupy.... I have my divisions there, and my garrisons, and it's all mine... There's no way in hell the Germans could steal it from me and force my troops out without a fight...

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

I'm speaking mostly from my preference from multiplayer, meaning that mods are not an option. In single player or cooperatively I can understand how this may not seem like a big deal. When you are in multiplayer, this is game breaking...

And say what you will about diplomacy during that time period, I won't agree or disagree here, this issue isn't really about diplomacy. It's about a critical flaw in the design of the peace deal system regarding territory occupation.

It's very simply about a player being able to do something they should not be able to do, something so horrible it feels like cheating or hacking, because it's so absurd and unfair. No one should be able to claim territory that I occupy.... I have my divisions there, and my garrisons, and it's all mine... There's no way in hell the Germans could steal it from me and force my troops out without a fight...

Multiplayer is different and depends. It really doesn't work with custom rules all Players agree upon anyways (no matter of competitive or not). But that is only an opinion.
The PCs are lacking nonetheless. But it is possible to agree on a set of mods everybody uses, if you have a Community and don't Random join.
Anyways, if you join Random hosts I now do have a better understanding of why this is a Problem for you that really hurts your experience.

 

[Vlad123]

FOR ANYONE NOT KNOW IN HOI2 (and maybay hoi3) the system are LIKE EU system! And this avoid much problem,in hoi2 in addition,exist much features (and in hoi3) can are super useful but removed in hoi4!

 

[Delpheus]

I was just watching the feedback gaming video on Greece and saw he had two provinces stolen from him by Germany and given to Bulgaria and without Greek player input!

Also, I was playing a Greek game and pushing into Romania's north, when suddenly the land I had conquered was sold to the USSR without my input, causing half my army to instantly become encircled!

So it's not just peace deals, but stealing land in other ways, that has made the game too frustrating and unrealistic to be playable anymore.

These incidents have only further killed my interest in HOI4, I can't stand having my land stolen anymore....
EU4 is far superior.

 

[Caeric]

I was just watching the feedback gaming video on Greece and saw he had two provinces stolen from him by Germany and given to Bulgaria and without Greek player input!

Also, I was playing a Greek game and pushing into Romania's north, when suddenly the land I had conquered was sold to the USSR without my input, causing half my army to instantly become encircled!

So it's not just peace deals, but stealing land in other ways, that has made the game too frustrating and unrealistic to be playable anymore.

These incidents have only further killed my interest in HOI4, I can't stand having my land stolen anymore....
EU4 is far superior.

Apparently the Bulgarian one is a bug from my understanding, it's supposed to force Germany/Italy/anybody else in the Axis occupying clay claimed by Bulgaria to hand it over but it seems they've screwed up and the game doesn't even check who the current controller is.

 

[Delpheus]

Apparently the Bulgarian one is a bug from my understanding, it's supposed to force Germany/Italy/anybody else in the Axis occupying clay claimed by Bulgaria to hand it over but it seems they've screwed up and the game doesn't even check who the current controller is.

I really hope they fix that ASAP....
Glad to know it's a bug not working as intended