PDXCON 2015: The Grand livestreaming schedule for PDS (Including HOI4)

[1alexey]

well, only really if you have some good choke points to fight in. an elite force can still be encircled by a larger group of green divisions and cut off.

Any chances you would reconsider the experience scaling?
The division that was formed yesterday should not even be able to fight.
Scaling from 100% efficiency to 200% efficiency seems terrible.

Is it possible to make absolutely untrained troops to fight with say 30% effectiveness, barely trained at around 70% effectiveness, trained at 100%, and very well trained at around 120%, and the maximum would be 200%.

The HOI3 effects of training being from 100% to 130% didn`t really feel different as the % bonus was almost unnoticeable after total modifiers like combined arms, general skill and terrain were accounted for.

 

[podcat]

Any chances you would reconsider the experience scaling?
The division that was formed yesterday should not even be able to fight.
Scaling from 100% efficiency to 200% efficiency seems terrible.

Is it possible to make absolutely untrained troops to fight with say 30% effectiveness, barely trained at around 70% effectiveness, trained at 100%, and very well trained at around 120%, and the maximum would be 200%.

The HOI3 effects of training being from 100% to 130% didn`t really feel different as the % bonus was almost unnoticeable after total modifiers like combined arms, general skill and terrain were accounted for.

what do you mean? maximum is 100%. totally untrained troops have 0%

 

[dizzle3]

what do you mean? maximum is 100%. totally untrained troops have 0%

I think he is asking for the differential to be higher, as in veterans are 300% better.

One question - does training/military exercises cause threat or something similar?

 

[1alexey]

what do you mean? maximum is 100%. totally untrained troops have 0%

How does experience affects combat in HOI4?
In HOI3 it was 100% + experience%, so the difference between totally untrained troops and trained at best laws was 30%, 100% to 130%.
What I want, is to not have the default 100%, so I want the "full efficiency", 100% to belong to somewhat trained troops.
In terms of math, experience should be a multiplier, that goes from 0.something to 2, with undertraied troops sitting at below 1, like 0.3, decently trained troops at 1, and well trained troops and veterans above 1.

So un-traied divisions stats are Base_Stats*0.3, while veterans have something like Base_Stats*1.5, while trained troops have Base_Stats*1.

My consern is, that under the HOI3 expirience system, the game will have very little actual difference between division that was deployed after a day, and a division that took 2-6 month to train, which would be awfully open to exploits.

 

[FOARP]

This is more of a dev problem than a forumite problem. After all, they are the supply and we are the demand. If they announce that they will supply us with awesome stuff very quickly, then back down on the content and reconsider their schedule thrice, it is normal for us to feel frustrated.

But I agree with you : games should be announced at a much later stage. Seeing devs constantly changing their mind on what is going to be inthe game and when it will come out is not something we should have to go through with every new game. This is bad PR at best.

Agreed. They do basically bring this on themselves. There's also the problem of over-commitment to a particular feature simply because it's been announced: it certainly sounds like they've had problems implementing the battle planner, yet they are now to a degree committed to including it in the game simply because they have announced HOI4 will have it, and if they back out of that they will be accused of breaking their promise. Even worse, if they later implement it in a DLC they will be accused of cutting stuff out so they could sell it later.

 

[gregor_mendel]

Honestly I'm just astounded at the lack of an OOB. HoI 4 and we're back to using superstacks? The combat system looks outstanding for Victoria 3 but this is HoI. PDX has four different "core" games. No need to make them all the same in an attempt at a larger audience.

 

[Lollardheretics]

My consern is, that under the HOI3 expirience system, the game will have very little actual difference between division that was deployed after a day, and a division that took 2-6 month to train, which would be awfully open to exploits.

What do you don't understand ?

If you deploy day 1 your untrained division they will have 0 %, if you wait until they are fully trained 50%, and when fully trained and battle hardened 100% (50 x 100% = 100).
If you deploy day 1 and then train your units, it will take the same amount of time but cost equipment attrition.

Unit in training use the worst equipment in your stockpileand replace it with the best equipment if you allow them while deploying.

Honestly I'm just astounded at the lack of an OOB. HoI 4 and we're back to using superstacks? The combat system looks outstanding for Victoria 3 but this is HoI. PDX has four different "core" games. No need to make them all the same in an attempt at a larger audience.

No stack, ARMY.

You can deploy them on a frontline, or concentrate them to breakthrough and then spread or hold a new front, for example, 1st Panzer Army lead by Von Manstein rush through the Ardenne to Dunkirk, 2nd Panzer Army follow and exploit by rushing forward then South to Paris, 3rd Infantry army follow them and defend the north front, 4rth Army follow and attack following the 2nd Pz Army and exploit while holding a frontline toward the South.

 

[Denkt]

If you deploy day 1 and then train your units, it will take the same amount of time but cost equipment attrition.

And give you land combat experience which is very important.

Honestly I'm just astounded at the lack of an OOB. HoI 4 and we're back to using superstacks? The combat system looks outstanding for Victoria 3 but this is HoI. PDX has four different "core" games. No need to make them all the same in an attempt at a larger audience.

Wait for land combat DD and you will see it is not about superstacks.

 

[FOARP]

And give you land combat experience which is very important.



Wait for land combat DD and you will see it is not about superstacks.

Yup. Basically this game's still in Alpha. The OOB mechanics may not exist, or it may not have been implemented yet so they don't know what it's going to look like.

 

[varsovie]

Question to the devs about production, experience and equipment.

It is said at PDXcon that :
- You can train divisions during production to the level you wish if you have the equipment available.
- You can train divisions on the map with some attrition to equipment.
- You can (and should) [re]use older equipment to train and new stuff on the front.

So my questions are:
- Is there equipment attrition for training while division is building? (I think it should.)
- What's the difference in speed/efficiency between training on-map and in-production?
- Will on-map divisions receive a cap on their experience build-up in training if missing equipment?
EDIT: Will on-map training have a chance of giving some combat experience (EXP) too?
- Can you have cadre units to speed-up training (or will a highly trained but depleted unit receiving reinforcement train them faster)?
- Will some countries (democracies)) receive penalties when sending troop to combats/oversee without adequate level of training?
- Is there any experience penalty to simulate the delta of training and familiarity when you switch a division's equipment?
- What control mechanic is in place to ensure high-tech stuff goes to front-line and old-stuff goes to training units? Is it automated or manual? How does it deal with overseas divisions (does it require convoy/supply)?
- How do you deploy divisions? Wouldn't it make sense to deploy building divisions at the start of its construction and unlock its movement when completed?
- Where can you deploy/build divisions?

Thank, stream was a little short, DD little late but still good to see the game is improving and moving forward.

 

[gregor_mendel]

No stack, ARMY.

You can deploy them on a frontline, or concentrate them to breakthrough and then spread or hold a new front, for example, 1st Panzer Army lead by Von Manstein rush through the Ardenne to Dunkirk, 2nd Panzer Army follow and exploit by rushing forward then South to Paris, 3rd Infantry army follow them and defend the north front, 4rth Army follow and attack following the 2nd Pz Army and exploit while holding a frontline toward the South.

So it's a stack that can move on its own and we now call it an "Army" instead of a "stack". Looks really great for Victoria 3 but not so much for HoI4.

It's all too generic for me. Seems like one step forward, two steps back.

 

[Centurion1973]

what do you mean? maximum is 100%. totally untrained troops have 0%

What is maximum % that can be gained by training?

Is experience gain non-linear? IMO, it should be like ORG regain, where at low lovel, you gain unit exp. quickly and as your exp. increases exp. gain gets slower and slower.

 

[VampiRos]

Question to the devs about production, experience and equipment.

It is said at PDXcon that :
- You can train divisions during production to the level you wish if you have the equipment available.
- You can train divisions on the map with some attrition to equipment.
- You can (and should) [re]use older equipment to train and new stuff on the front.

So my questions are:
- Is there equipment attrition for training while division is building? (I think it should.)
- What's the difference in speed/efficiency between training on-map and in-production?
- Will on-map divisions receive a cap on their experience build-up in training if missing equipment?
EDIT: Will on-map training have a chance of giving some combat experience (EXP) too?
- Can you have cadre units to speed-up training (or will a highly trained but depleted unit receiving reinforcement train them faster)?
- Will some countries (democracies)) receive penalties when sending troop to combats/oversee without adequate level of training?
- Is there any experience penalty to simulate the delta of training and familiarity when you switch a division's equipment?
- What control mechanic is in place to ensure high-tech stuff goes to front-line and old-stuff goes to training units? Is it automated or manual? How does it deal with overseas divisions (does it require convoy/supply)?
- How do you deploy divisions? Wouldn't it make sense to deploy building divisions at the start of its construction and unlock its movement when completed?
- Where can you deploy/build divisions?

Thank, stream was a little short, DD little late but still good to see the game is improving and moving forward.

I would like to answer some obvious stuff that is in the Stream already answered and you didnt watched it properly...:

So my questions are:
- Is there equipment attrition for training while division is building? (I think it should.) Yes
EDIT: Will on-map training have a chance of giving some combat experience (EXP) too? No
- What control mechanic is in place to ensure high-tech stuff goes to front-line and old-stuff goes to training units? Is it automated or manual? How does it deal with overseas divisions (does it require convoy/supply)? It was said some time ago and in the Stream that there will be also Panzer I at the End of the Game. Some time ago i think they said you can define in which Division you want to have new stuff
- How do you deploy divisions? Wouldn't it make sense to deploy building divisions at the start of its construction and unlock its movement when completed? You can Deploy Divisions at about 10% Training/equipment
- Where can you deploy/build divisions?Army designer...

 

[varsovie]

- Where can you deploy/build divisions?Army designer...

Should've been more clear. Can you deploy divisions only in continental controlled territories like HOI3 or there's other mechanic. In which province can they appears on-map?

 

[Skylax]

So it's a stack that can move on its own and we now call it an "Army" instead of a "stack". Looks really great for Victoria 3 but not so much for HoI4.

It's all too generic for me. Seems like one step forward, two steps back.

What does an OOB have to do with stacks?

I could stack 40 units together with an OOB, the only mechanics that refrained me from doing so were the stacking penalty and attack delay. However, when attacking France (over Luxembourg) for example, I always had roughly 40 divisions (plus HQs) stacked in one province, let 2 of those divisions carry out the breakthrough attack just to flood the hole in the defense with the remaining units afterwards.

In HoI4, it seems to me, stacking kind of depends on the "width" of the frontline you draw. If you assign 40 divisions to a frontline of the "width" of 2 provinces, they will obviously stack (maybe 20 for each province). If you assign 40 divisions to a frontline of 20 provinces (like the German-Polish border) there might be about 2 divisions per province. This has absolutely nothing to do with an OOB, so I do not understand this concern and don't get several people bringing it up.

Plus, as you could see in the stream, even if you order all the troops from the German-Polish-border-frontline to attack Warsaw, they will advance on all fronts. The green blinking provinces pretty much indicate where the troops are going to move, which is awesome. Encirclements are really easy to manage now as well. Lets say you draw a circular frontline from Dresden to Ostpreußen, the divisions at Danzig probably won't advance at all, whereas the divisions in the south would make their way up north-east. It is a beautiful design in my opinion, especially considering you can always split the front, have certain units perform independent moves etc. Units will only stack if the player him-/herself orders the units to do so.

 

[1alexey]

What do you don't understand ?

If you deploy day 1 your untrained division they will have 0 %, if you wait until they are fully trained 50%, and when fully trained and battle hardened 100% (50 x 100% = 100).
If you deploy day 1 and then train your units, it will take the same amount of time but cost equipment attrition.

Unit in training use the worst equipment in your stockpileand replace it with the best equipment if you allow them while deploying.

Did you by any chance looked at the stream? In case you missed, the maximum efficiency of unit with 100% experience is, 200%, which is mentioned. Units deployed at 0 experience, then obviously are at just 100%. Which is how it was in HOI3, but is a horrible model.

Besides, I`m sure that 50 x 100% != 100, but 50.

 

[Centurion1973]

I think, that it can work, but only if experience gain is non-linear.

IMO maximum should be bigger (or minimum should be 0 instead of 100 - with 60-80 representing fully trained unit) , because difference between green unit with poor training against unit with good training + little bit of experience is huge.

 

[Filou]

Did you by any chance looked at the stream? In case you missed, the maximum efficiency of unit with 100% experience is, 200%, which is mentioned. Units deployed at 0 experience, then obviously are at just 100%. Which is how it was in HOI3, but is a horrible model.

Besides, I`m sure that 50 x 100% != 100, but 50.

50 x 100% = 5000% in my book. Unless you meant 50% of 100%.

From what I understood units deployed at 0 experience would have 0 experience. But you can't do that since the minimum experience is 10. So lest say that you rush out a division into the field, it start at 10 xp. Or you can leave it in off-map training so it reaches the max your laws allow.
You can then train it on-map, and it can reach 100 xp. And it can't go over 100 unless it sees combat.
Then it goes into combat and, if things go well, it goes above 100 xp, up to 200 xp.

xp translate directly into combat effectiveness. So that fully green unit fights at 10% efficiency, the fully trained unit fights at 100% efficiency, while that super-veteran fights at 200% efficiency.

 

[Axe99]

Thanks, convoys is actually a problem for UK for example and it does look a bit cluttered right now. Its something we'll try to improve.

generals isnt really a problem, you can get more, but doing that when you have a lot is going to cost political power (so you cant just ignore all the historical commanders, so cost scales with how many you already have)

yeah he was giving me hell for changing some of the shortcut keys compared to EU4 and he is right

Thanks for the response and thanks for allaying concerns re generals . Convoys on map much less of a worry (it doesn't affect game mechanics, it's just a visual thing) - one thought (probably one you've already thought of) could be to merge convoy lines when there's more than one convoy in an area, and make the lines thicker (so you only have one line, but it's a thicker line for two convoys, thicker again for three and so on)? That, and maybe making the shading slightly less prominent when you're not in the naval map mode? Just thoughts, possibly rubbish, will shut up and leave it to the professionals now .

I think, that it can work, but only if experience gain is non-linear.

IMO maximum should be bigger (or minimum should be 0 instead of 100 - with 60-80 representing fully trained unit) , because difference between green unit with poor training against unit with good training + little bit of experience is huge.

Aye, I'd think non-linear gain and non-linear effect would be the way. That way if you've got a green, untrained division, they'll get smashed by a trained division with even a dash of combat experience, but if you've got a well-trained division it would stand up fairly well even in it's first fight against an 'fully' experienced division, but the fully experienced division would still have a noticeable (but not curb-stomping) edge.

 

[1alexey]

50 x 100% = 5000% in my book. Unless you meant 50% of 100%.

5000% = 50. 100% = 1.00

From what I understood units deployed at 0 experience would have 0 experience. But you can't do that since the minimum experience is 10. So lest say that you rush out a division into the field, it start at 10 xp. Or you can leave it in off-map training so it reaches the max your laws allow.
You can then train it on-map, and it can reach 100 xp. And it can't go over 100 unless it sees combat.
Then it goes into combat and, if things go well, it goes above 100 xp, up to 200 xp.

xp translate directly into combat effectiveness. So that fully green unit fights at 10% efficiency, the fully trained unit fights at 100% efficiency, while that super-veteran fights at 200% efficiency.

But that is basically my whole question, where exactly on combat experience will unit with 0 experience end up, compared to unit with maximum possible training and maximum possible combat experience.