PDXCON 2015: The Grand livestreaming schedule for PDS (Including HOI4)

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Modestus

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If you give them time to move up to the front, I guess they might attack like this:

DX90k6W.jpg


Which would involve all 4 division when the attack begins, but across 2 provinces.

The arrow generated by the game does suggest an attack through only 1 province, but I'm not sure that's necessarily how the divisions will move. It's probably the behavior in situations like this that is taking Paradox a lot of time to work out.

I agree it seems to be an issue but I have to assume that Divisions must follow instructions from the player so one arrow one route of attack.
 

dav77-b

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Yes but it is still just a generic "stack" of units. Instead of having II. Korps (2. Armee, HG Nord, Ostfront) attack a position I instead have the stack led by Hausser attacking the enemy stack led by "<insert-famous-general-name-here>".

The OOB was a realistic tool that allowed for us to keep track of our combined forces. For instance, if I was playing as Germany and wanted to know what forces I had available to me in Africa I could just click on "HG Afrika" and get a nice run-down of all my units.
Sure, it takes the player a bit of time in the beginning to set up the OOB but it is very much worth it in the end. And it is realistic!

This HoI4 combat system appears to be more suited to CK2 or Victoria2 than it does the Hearts of Iron series. I thought the focus was supposed to be on combat? Why no OOB?


HOI3: Put "II.Korp" under 100% AI controle
or move every single division manualy.

HOI4: Tell "II.Korp" how to move, where/when/how to attack/retreat/wait/etc
or move every single division manualy.

With OOB:

HOI3: put "II.Korp" , (which is part of "Army south") under 100% AI controle or
or move every single division manualy.

HOI4: Tell "II.Korp" (which is part of "Army south") how to move, where/when/how to attack/retreat/wait/etc
or move every single division manualy.

I dont see how OOB affects Combat, it only affects overview. HOI4 is a huge improvement as it offers a nice mix between micro&macro management.
In HOI4 we dont send stacks against each other like in CK or EU. Combat stays the same as in HOI3. Only the controle is different.
 

potski

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I have no idea what you are talking about, I showed an example of an attack that if executed will clearly only involve two divisions you have decided to ramble on about some other attack that you have imagined in your head.

Simple question if you order an attack in the example I have shown how many divisions will move into enemy territory on the first day?

Nothing imaginary, this is what you said:

4 divisions are meant to take up a position along a front of two provinces so if we assume that the AI will distribute those divisions evenly you will have 2 Divisions per province...

What is imaginary is your idea that since the arrow appears on the map from the western of the two provinces, that only the two Divs in the western province will take part in the advance. I disagree with that.

And I point out that if this doesn't involve all 4 Divs in a one province wide Schwerpunkt then that is podcat the players fault, not podcat the dev for creating a bad feature. Players are responsible for their actions. If they position the Schwerpunkt in a bad place, don't give it enough forces, don't time it right to co-ordinate with other forces, leave it isolated etc. then it is their fault not the game.

We are not going to be playing a hands off game, observing the AI controlling our forces. We create and launch the plans, and they have to be good, because we should be playing against an AI that is better than that in the old games. It's over five years! since I first downloaded and played HOI3, and tested how it performed in combat against me, and with me giving Corps/Armies AI control and setting objectives. We hope that the devs have improved on this.

You know that there is no simple answer - it depends on a whole range of factors, including the relative strengths of the forces, what detailed commands given, perhaps weather and time of day, and what is happening immediately to either side of this force (the AI will surely not ignore it's flanks, but look all across the East Prussia front).

Back in HOI2 I tried to do something like this plan and what was shown at Gamescon. But it didn't work - the Poland AI immediately attacked from Danzig along the coast behind my front line, and threatened to capture the port required for supplies. My whole line had to turn and defeat this threat, rather than heading for Warsaw as I intended. The plan was in my head, not in a battle plan in the game, but the point is I had a bad plan, and the enemy AI exploited that. I learnt that concentrating on the armoured forces is not enough, you need infantry and in the right places.

Nothing in HOI4 will prevent someone making a bad battle plan. It doesn't invalidate the feature. In fact, it confirms that the game is not dumbed down, and thought and careful consideration needs to go into how you position your forces, and exactly what orders you give to try to achieve your objectives.
 

Sakkura

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I agree it seems to be an issue but I have to assume that Divisions must follow instructions from the player so one arrow one route of attack.

When he drew a several provinces wide front, there was still only one arrow. I don't think the arrows will show every single path province by province, just the overall direction of advance. Otherwise, those wide-front attacks would have tons of arrows covering the map.
 

Modestus

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Nothing imaginary, this is what you said:



What is imaginary is your idea that since the arrow appears on the map from the western of the two provinces, that only the two Divs in the western province will take part in the advance. I disagree with that.

And I point out that if this doesn't involve all 4 Divs in a one province wide Schwerpunkt then that is podcat the players fault, not podcat the dev for creating a bad feature. Players are responsible for their actions. If they position the Schwerpunkt in a bad place, don't give it enough forces, don't time it right to co-ordinate with other forces, leave it isolated etc. then it is their fault not the game.

We are not going to be playing a hands off game, observing the AI controlling our forces. We create and launch the plans, and they have to be good, because we should be playing against an AI that is better than that in the old games. It's over five years! since I first downloaded and played HOI3, and tested how it performed in combat against me, and with me giving Corps/Armies AI control and setting objectives. We hope that the devs have improved on this.

You know that there is no simple answer - it depends on a whole range of factors, including the relative strengths of the forces, what detailed commands given, perhaps weather and time of day, and what is happening immediately to either side of this force (the AI will surely not ignore it's flanks, but look all across the East Prussia front).

Back in HOI2 I tried to do something like this plan and what was shown at Gamescon. But it didn't work - the Poland AI immediately attacked from Danzig along the coast behind my front line, and threatened to capture the port required for supplies. My whole line had to turn and defeat this threat, rather than heading for Warsaw as I intended. The plan was in my head, not in a battle plan in the game, but the point is I had a bad plan, and the enemy AI exploited that. I learnt that concentrating on the armoured forces is not enough, you need infantry and in the right places.

Nothing in HOI4 will prevent someone making a bad battle plan. It doesn't invalidate the feature. In fact, it confirms that the game is not dumbed down, and thought and careful consideration needs to go into how you position your forces, and exactly what orders you give to try to achieve your objectives.


OK a slight misunderstanding, I understand that its the players own fault if divisions are not positioned correctly but that is my point and has been my point for a long while with regards battle- plans they don’t work unless your divisions are positioned correctly.

Simply drawing a Front-line is not good enough, adding an attack vector is not good enough you must know what where and when Divisions will attack, an issue that does not arise with HOI III because essentially your manually controlling everything.


The example I showed was just a small taste of the type of problem that could arise now multiply that by hundreds of divisions.

On top of this I now realise we have a problem with how the game generates arrows, its back to front, from where the player wants to go back to the players nearest province rather then from the players province to where you want to go.
 

Modestus

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When he drew a several provinces wide front, there was still only one arrow. I don't think the arrows will show every single path province by province, just the overall direction of advance. Otherwise, those wide-front attacks would have tons of arrows covering the map.


Indeed to advance on a wide front you draw an advanced Front-line a large arrow will then appear and once the plan is executed all that army will attempt to advance to that front- line.

So if you draw an Advanced Front-line an army will make its own way to that Advanced Front-line if you use the other tool and click on an enemy province and arrow will appear and any divisions assigned to that arrow must follow that route.
 

Sakkura

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Indeed to advance on a wide front you draw an advanced Front-line a large arrow will then appear and once the plan is executed all that army will attempt to advance to that front- line.

So if you draw an Advanced Front-line an army will make its own way to that Advanced Front-line if you use the other tool and click on an enemy province and arrow will appear and any divisions assigned to that arrow must follow that route.
I don't understand what you're objecting to then. You draw up the front, and the army makes its way to the target by whatever routes the AI finds suitable. In this example, probably by the two routes I drew in the picture. If the AI decides on stupid ways to move, of course that's an issue, but that all depends on how smart Paradox can make the system.
 

Modestus

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I don't understand what you're objecting to then. You draw up the front, and the army makes its way to the target by whatever routes the AI finds suitable. In this example, probably by the two routes I drew in the picture. If the AI decides on stupid ways to move, of course that's an issue, but that all depends on how smart Paradox can make the system.

There appears to be two methods,

1\ Advanced Front-line, this allows an army to move to its objective by whatever route it chooses and that army will then attempt to create a new Front-line.

2\ Click on an enemies province, this will draw an arrow back to the players nearest province and it would appear and I would assume that any divisions assigned to this arrow cannot deviate from that route.

So unless you position your 4 Divisions correctly only 2 of the 4 divisions will advance into enemy territory on the first day.




I see what Paradox are up to but at the moment it feels as if someone is drawing up a battle-plan to have a robot pour them a cup of tea but not good enough to make sure that the Robot wont spill the tea.

Perhaps you should in the end pour your own tea or accept that your Robot needs to be better which probably means more micro- management then less. .

02-robots-210412_zpsey6qehq7.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sakkura

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There appears to be two methods,

1\ Advanced Front-line, this allows an army to move to its objective by whatever route it chooses and that army will then attempt to create a new Front-line.

2\ Click on an enemies province, this will draw an arrow back to the players nearest province and it would appear and I would assume that any divisions assigned to this arrow cannot deviate from that route.

Well you're misunderstanding it then. Using system 1 makes an arrow. But that arrow doesn't represent all the individual movements of the divisions involved, just the overall direction of advance.
 

Modestus

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Well you're misunderstanding it then. Using system 1 makes an arrow. But that arrow doesn't represent all the individual movements of the divisions involved, just the overall direction of advance.

That is what I said.
 

unmerged(748229)

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Don't worry if you make a bad battleplan. HOI4 has licensed technology from etch-a-sketch so you can erase any bad plans. It's easy! Just shake your monitor.*

*Also works on small children that won't be quiet.
 

varsovie

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Ha.

OK lets go through it step by step.

1\ Select 4 divisions and draw a Front line two provinces wide , logically the AI should then position two divisions in each province.

2\ Click on an enemy province and a single arrow is drawn to the players nearest province which should contain two Divisions.

3\ If you now order that whole army (4 divisions) to attack then its logical to assume that only two of your divisions will enter enemy territory on the first day and the other two will make there way first through German territory, they will not attack enemy units directly in front of them.



The problem with arrows, is that IF the movement need to be precise (eg 1 province wide), it would be probably as fiddly to draw the arrow than shift-click the province with divisions selected. If over that the AI allows itself some side-walks, you could end with part of your armored trust in a marsh. I'd argue it's an AI issue, if what Postki says (that is a player drawing issue) then the concept of battleplan has failled to reduce the microgestion required in any significant amount.

Same for force concentration, in the example if AI distributes evenly, it could be OK, even maybe if it delays the offensive in a province. But what happen if you only assign 3 divisions? What if you're onthe defencive and one province is exposed plains and the other level 5fortress + forest and you need to maintain coherence? What if I want to conserve my armored strength to strike deeper instead of using it for faster breakthrough? I think all those concept cannot be relayed to the AI with the current "drawing" mechanique, but are required for optimal play.

If the AI is good it may do well enough to let you draw plans versus minors or major axes of advances for inf. only and let your elite divisions under manual control. Oh wait, is it HOI 3 or 4? :p

On a more serious note, it's hard to argue about the behavior of the battleplans without having the game to test said behaviors. So I'll cross fingers and wait the release before unleashing hell on paradox.
 

Modestus

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Well then why are you criticizing system 1 for system 2 behavior in an example demonstrating system 1?

In this Video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0jNe_dUVE

podcat around 22.53 draws an advanced front-line and an arrow appears showing the general direction that his army will move in, so if you leave it at that his Divisions will have the freedom to make their own way and create a new front line.



At 22.40 podcat creates a narrow advanced front-line the jump off point being a single German province so I am assuming that any divisions assigned to that vector will be restricted to attacking from that single province.

However podcat also created a front along the Polish border of two provinces which means that the AI will first position its 4 Divisions in those two provinces which would then mean that if the plan was executed 2 Divisions would attack while the other two would need to first move to the jump off province.

So while I could be wrong it appears to me to be a very cumbersome and prone to mistakes type of method that I think requires much more management then in HOI III.
 

Sakkura

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In this Video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0jNe_dUVE

podcat around 22.53 draws an advanced front-line and an arrow appears showing the general direction that his army will move in, so if you leave it at that his Divisions will have the freedom to make their own way and create a new front line.



At 22.40 podcat creates a narrow advanced front-line the jump off point being a single German province so I am assuming that any divisions assigned to that vector will be restricted to attacking from that single province.

However podcat also created a front along the Polish border of two provinces which means that the AI will first position its 4 Divisions in those two provinces which would then mean that if the plan was executed 2 Divisions would attack while the other two would need to first move to the jump off province.

So while I could be wrong it appears to me to be a very cumbersome and prone to mistakes type of method that I think requires much more management then in HOI III.

Huh? At 22:40 he's in the process of drawing a large frontal assault, west to east. At 24:00 he starts making a smaller assault, but still using the battle planner system. It's in the picture you posted earlier. The divisions are supposed to start out holding a 2-province front, and end up at a 1-province front. But they still go by the same rules, so they could make their own path to the target. Eg. by attacking along two paths as I illustrated.
 

unmerged(83175)

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In this Video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0jNe_dUVE

podcat around 22.53 draws an advanced front-line and an arrow appears showing the general direction that his army will move in, so if you leave it at that his Divisions will have the freedom to make their own way and create a new front line.



At 22.40 podcat creates a narrow advanced front-line the jump off point being a single German province so I am assuming that any divisions assigned to that vector will be restricted to attacking from that single province.

However podcat also created a front along the Polish border of two provinces which means that the AI will first position its 4 Divisions in those two provinces which would then mean that if the plan was executed 2 Divisions would attack while the other two would need to first move to the jump off province.

So while I could be wrong it appears to me to be a very cumbersome and prone to mistakes type of method that I think requires much more management then in HOI III.

Yes, it looks so, it will even require more management if the AI still doesn't know how to use terrain correctly. How will the 3 Panzer-divisions move that are attached to the Hausser group. Will it stay on the terrain type that is most favourable for armor or will it try to reach it's objective via the shortest way and maybe going through terrain ill suited for armor?

The biggest problem with HoI3 was that the AI wasn't capable of using the right units for the right terrain. If the AI in HoI3 could do that, it would have been wonderful.

I haven't watched all video's, thus maybe this was already answered/shown.
 

Centurion1973

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Yes, it looks so, it will even require more management if the AI still doesn't know how to use terrain correctly. How will the 3 Panzer-divisions move that are attached to the Hausser group. Will it stay on the terrain type that is most favourable for armor or will it try to reach it's objective via the shortest way and maybe going through terrain ill suited for armor?

The biggest problem with HoI3 was that the AI wasn't capable of using the right units for the right terrain. If the AI in HoI3 could do that, it would have been wonderful.

I haven't watched all video's, thus maybe this was already answered/shown.

Moving through unfavorable terrain is common even for human players
- it might be less guarded
- enemy is weak and you want to reach that target ASAP
- shape of frontline is such that moving through bad terrain provide better chance to encircle enemy troops
etc.
 

unmerged(83175)

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Moving through unfavorable terrain is common even for human players
- it might be less guarded
- enemy is weak and you want to reach that target ASAP
- shape of frontline is such that moving through bad terrain provide better chance to encircle enemy troops
etc.

Yes, but we know why we do it and why it would be a good thing to move armor trough ill suited terrain. Will the AI know when to do it and when not? That's the fine detailing. If the AI doesn't know that, than you still need to babysit all your divisions and than we were better of with the HoI3 movement and OOB.

With your explanation the AI in HoI3 was brilliant... .
 

Centurion1973

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To learn how things really work, we would need to get our hands either on the game or on recording of gameplay from start till 41 or 42. I hope, that devs will post something like that during the beta.
 

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One question that needs to be answered, though, is how the battleplan AI will handle flank security. Will it automatically detach infantry units to guard the flanks? Because if it doesn't, your going to see a lot of attacks suffer the fate of getting cut-off.