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vranasm

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I have to say that from what I saw about the battleplans iteration, some of mine concerns completely vanished.

What I am not sure about -
how effectively you can organize your army? we talk here possibly 100+divisions by USSR/Germany
the generals had rather low amount of divisions (those 2 had 10 divisions under them).

How the minors will have enough generals? In HOI 3 you run out of commanders (I run out even with USSR) and it seems like if you want to have couple divisions under one battleplan you always need a general.
That could be pretty big disadvantage.

I like the exp. bar for divisions, but did paradox think about giving divisions Iron Cross and other medals? would be nice touch
 

Centurion1973

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IIRC during that video they showed, that with second highest rank general can command 25 divisions, so 50 is likely max. per general, which should be enough (nations are unlikely to build 500 divisions....).
 

vranasm

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IIRC during that video they showed, that with second highest rank general can command 25 divisions, so 50 is likely max. per general, which should be enough (nations are unlikely to build 500 divisions....).

but that is a bit troubling in itself... you can't have much flexibility then... like for example I want my 100 divisions put into 10 generals with 10 different battleplans...

if you imagine waging 2 side war with Germany against france and Poland at the same time, you probably want at least 2 generals for western front, and at least 3-4 generals for eastern... and now imagine invasion of USSR...I can't imagine doing USSR invasion with like 3 generals? that front itself could eat at least 6-7 generals...
 

Centurion1973

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but that is a bit troubling in itself... you can't have much flexibility then... like for example I want my 100 divisions put into 10 generals with 10 different battleplans...

if you imagine waging 2 side war with Germany against france and Poland at the same time, you probably want at least 2 generals for western front, and at least 3-4 generals for eastern... and now imagine invasion of USSR...I can't imagine doing USSR invasion with like 3 generals? that front itself could eat at least 6-7 generals...

And whats the problem? I said, that it looks like 1 general will be able to command up to 50 divisions - nothing is stopping you from splitting 200 divisions between 20 generals (10 divisions per general) and giving each of them their own battleplan.

I didnt say anything about maximum number of generals, just that we wont need huge number of them for reallistic number of divisions.
 

Modestus

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I'm not sure about those conclusions.

Like, wouldn't the AI be able to figure out "roughly" how many it units it needs to attack (saying: why wouldn't it attack with all 4), even in HOI3 you could get a rough estimate of what units you needed to produce when you gave the AI control. And why wouldn't they align themselves along the front, if you go to the previous plan THEY have aligned themselves along the front and not 1 province back for no reason like you suggest.
.

The front line has two provinces so the AI cannot ignore the players instruction to position two Divisions in each province similarly the AI cannot ignore the players instruction to attack one enemy province therefore once the plan is activated the AI will either attack with two divisions immediately or it will wait for the other two Divisions to move into the same province and then attack with four Divisions.

In fairness podcat was quickly demonstrating the mechanic but its quite clear to me that unless two arrows were drawn the German army would only attack one enemy province.

What does this mean? What it appears to mean is that an army will only attack where there are arrows so for a large army to attack along a wide front line you will need to draw a series of arrows along that front line so effectively your back to the type of manual control that you have in HOI III

But importantly with the added disadvantage that in HOI IV any Division that is part of an army will still move to whatever attack vector is available so even if the player drew no arrow from that Divisions province it would still move to the nearest one.



Edit: Just realised that Divisions need to be assigned to an attack vector so unless you assign a Division within an army to one of its attack vectors I presume it wont move either way movement within battle plans seems to more complicated and fraught with the possibility of mistakes then HOI III could ever be.
 
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Modestus

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I would personally not spend too much time scrutinizing and nitpicking a system that is still under construction and undergoing iterations.

IMO the fact that they added fronts at the starting and end point of our attacks is already a good sign that they are aware that it's good gameplay to let players have decent control over their forces.

Nitpicking ? Perhaps, it is a game forum nitpicking is almost a requirement. :)
 

potski

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Thank You for your Reply.



In Europe being able to 'buy' a commission went out of practice in the 19th century, or earlier. Achieving the rank of General was not something which one could achieve overnight, it took years of service and, depending on the Country, training and education. Promoting a Colonel to General was not something which 'cost' anything but was governed by the Rules and Regulations of each Nations Army. For me buying a General to wage war just feels wrong for the Time Period I know that in the Middle Ages Military Leaders were appointed by the King or Queen from Ranks of the Nobles but this ended even before WW1. I know that this is an 'emotional' Argument but in my opinion it feels wrong since I find having only 5 Generals for the German Army a bit unrealistic.

...

When DR refers to buying an extra general he is not talking about using money, as we know there is no money in the game. It is assumed that you use some Political Points. I doubt it is alot, all countries especially majors would have a big pool of people below Maj.Gen to pick from. And it is just to stop players spamming many random generals in the hope of finding one who is a Panzer Leader or other trait that you want.

If it is quite alot of PP, then maybe there would be a mechanism like the National Goals, where you spend the PP but you then get it back if the general gets used successfully in combat.
 

Sakkura

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What does this mean? What it appears to mean is that an army will only attack where there are arrows so for a large army to attack along a wide front line you will need to draw a series of arrows along that front line so effectively your back to the type of manual control that you have in HOI III
You don't draw arrows in the current version of the system, the game fills that in based on the fronts you draw. So if you draw a wide frontal assault, divisions should attack all along that line (I think that will be symbolized with a thick arrow rather than several small arrows, but they didn't show that situation in the stream).
 

Wulf145

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You could (and can) still promote talented people quickly, but you usually need influence to achieve this, as there'll (generally) be a number of already promoted generals that will not be happy with this. There are rules, of course, but the actual promotion decisions are things that have some political weight, and can be fast and slow-tracked. Using political power to provide a simple abstraction of this is a good way of getting some kind of mechanic in there to cover this, without turning HoI4 into "military human resources and internal politics sim" (which would be interesting, don't get me wrong :)).

With 'accelerated' Promotions I see the logic - but the function which I am not 'totally happy' about is the fact that in order to expand my Army I have to 'buy' new Generals. If I am of the opinion that 5 Generals for a Major Army is a bit limiting. If the number of Generals would be a function of the size of the Land forces I could understand it, and if you wanted more then you had to expend Political Power to promote 'extra Brass' I could see the logic. But to have a million man army and only 5 Generals is, in my opinion, unrealistic since you would actually have to spend Political Power to not promote anyone.
 

Sakkura

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That's an interesting point. Maybe they could make a system where the number of generals scales with number of divisions, but if you want more generals for more fine-grained control, that will cost political capital. That would make sense.
 

Beagá

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General number Always increases with army size, what doesn´t increase is quality, which dpeends on other factors.

So it´s awful to have to spend power go get more generals, unless it´s only used once it goes past a certain limit.
 

Modestus

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You don't draw arrows in the current version of the system, the game fills that in based on the fronts you draw. So if you draw a wide frontal assault, divisions should attack all along that line (I think that will be symbolized with a thick arrow rather than several small arrows, but they didn't show that situation in the stream).

You click on an enemy province and the game will automatically draw an arrow back to your nearest province its hardly going to change the width of your arrow depending on the width of your Front-line that would never work.

If anything the way to attack along a wide front is for the player to draw another Front-line deep within enemy territory and order a whole army to move there and within that general movement you could have Panzer Divisions assigned to attack vectors.

But that raises another issue , your arrow is drawn back from an enemy province to the players province so unless you have your Panzer Divisions in that province you will need to move them there first, you now cannot draw an arrow from your PZ Divisions to the enemy province its the other way around which is slightly odd.

Edit: In fact the only way to move particular Divisions accurately is to place them opposite the enemy province you wish to attack click on that enemy province and then create a series of other clicks along the path you want your Divisions to move but that may create a series of phases which perhaps you don’t want.
 
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Modestus

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I think you're completely misunderstanding the system. But since it hasn't been demonstrated in detail, we will probably have to wait and see.

That is a possibility but there are only so many ways to do something and Paradox do not work outside the laws of nature. :)
 

potski

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The front line has two provinces so the AI cannot ignore the players instruction to position two Divisions in each province similarly the AI cannot ignore the players instruction to attack one enemy province therefore once the plan is activated the AI will either attack with two divisions immediately or it will wait for the other two Divisions to move into the same province and then attack with four Divisions.

In fairness podcat was quickly demonstrating the mechanic but its quite clear to me that unless two arrows were drawn the German army would only attack one enemy province.

What does this mean? What it appears to mean is that an army will only attack where there are arrows so for a large army to attack along a wide front line you will need to draw a series of arrows along that front line so effectively your back to the type of manual control that you have in HOI III

But importantly with the added disadvantage that in HOI IV any Division that is part of an army will still move to whatever attack vector is available so even if the player drew no arrow from that Divisions province it would still move to the nearest one.



Edit: Just realised that Divisions need to be assigned to an attack vector so unless you assign a Division within an army to one of its attack vectors I presume it wont move either way movement within battle plans seems to more complicated and fraught with the possibility of mistakes then HOI III could ever be.

Again, making problems where there are none.

If you are micro-managing the units, exactly the same decision has to be made if you draw up your forces in that way. You have positioned them in two provinces, you want the breakthrough to be aimed at the enemy province on your western flank. But because of the shape of the border the Divs on the eastern flank cannot directly attack the breakthrough province.

Do you:

- before the offensive begins, re-arrange the forces to have 3 Divs (including both Arm) on the western flank, and leave 1 Div on the eastern
- when the offensive begins, the eastern flank advances first to defeat the enemy units in front of them, so that they can't immediately be used in a counter-attack into East Prussia, then they support the advance of the western flank who only attack once the eastern flank is in position to support them. That might also be part of a feint, to get the enemy to assume the main advance will be on the eastern flank, and it may draw some enemy forces towards there to weaken the line in front of the western flank
- when the offensive begins, advance immediately on both west and eastern flanks. While the arrow is drawn through the enemy province on the western, both flanks are in attack mode with a two province front, so the arrow is understood to mean a two province wide Schwerpunkt, which might narrow to one province if the opportunity arises
- before the offensive begins, remove the attack arrow through the enemy province on the western flank, and position it through the eastern provinces

What the arrow means is partly dependent on the order you give in the battle plan - you can see buttons in the UI to choose a Schwerpunkt or a wide advance across the front. But we know from HOI3 AI control, that even with Schwerpunkt and an attack arrow on the western flank, that the AI won't simply leave the eastern flank in place doing nothing. The AI will advance the western flank if it thinks it has the advantage and will win the battle. And it probably won't wait for the eastern flank to get into a position to support the western, it will also attack on the west if it thinks it will win.

The Schwerpunkt/wide front command is probably pretty meaningless when the front is only two provinces wide. It will probably only make a big difference when you have Generals commanding forces of up to 25 units, with a front of 10 provinces. But even then, I do not believe the AI would not advance all across the 10 provinces if it sees weak forces opposing it and calculates it can win those battles. There are a number of buttons in the UI for controlling the plan, and I would expect how aggressive the AI will be should be one decision you can control. If you make it not overly aggressive with a Schwerpunkt then you might see it attack only along the arrow, but I doubt it. The AI will understand the command as place strong forces where the arrow is, but we maintain a front and aren't going to let the strong forces advance too far on their own, or they will get cut-off. And the flank units will say, "Howay guys, we are at war here, look at how weak those forces opposing us are, let's get stuck in as well."

If what happens is not exactly what you expected is this:
- your fault for positioning your breakthrough forces on a two province front instead of just one
- your fault for positioning them at that point on the border, other locations might be more suitable to allow the eastern flank to provide support to the western in the initial attack
- your fault for placing the arrow on the west not east
- dumb AI
- broken game
- stupid battle plan feature
- lack of counters, HOI3-style would have followed your commands better
- lack of OOB, having those 4 Divs attached to a Corps HQ in East Prussia would be better

If you implement the plan as shown, will you:
- learn from that experience in Poland and create better plans in future
- rage quit and fill the forums with 100s of posts complaining about the game
 

Modestus

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Again, making problems where there are none.

If you are micro-managing the units, exactly the same decision has to be made if you draw up your forces in that way. You have positioned them in two provinces, you want the breakthrough to be aimed at the enemy province on your western flank. But because of the shape of the border the Divs on the eastern flank cannot directly attack the breakthrough province.

Do you:

- before the offensive begins, re-arrange the forces to have 3 Divs (including both Arm) on the western flank, and leave 1 Div on the eastern
- when the offensive begins, the eastern flank advances first to defeat the enemy units in front of them, so that they can't immediately be used in a counter-attack into East Prussia, then they support the advance of the western flank who only attack once the eastern flank is in position to support them. That might also be part of a feint, to get the enemy to assume the main advance will be on the eastern flank, and it may draw some enemy forces towards there to weaken the line in front of the western flank
- when the offensive begins, advance immediately on both west and eastern flanks. While the arrow is drawn through the enemy province on the western, both flanks are in attack mode with a two province front, so the arrow is understood to mean a two province wide Schwerpunkt, which might narrow to one province if the opportunity arises
- before the offensive begins, remove the attack arrow through the enemy province on the western flank, and position it through the eastern provinces

What the arrow means is partly dependent on the order you give in the battle plan - you can see buttons in the UI to choose a Schwerpunkt or a wide advance across the front. But we know from HOI3 AI control, that even with Schwerpunkt and an attack arrow on the western flank, that the AI won't simply leave the eastern flank in place doing nothing. The AI will advance the western flank if it thinks it has the advantage and will win the battle. And it probably won't wait for the eastern flank to get into a position to support the western, it will also attack on the west if it thinks it will win.

The Schwerpunkt/wide front command is probably pretty meaningless when the front is only two provinces wide. It will probably only make a big difference when you have Generals commanding forces of up to 25 units, with a front of 10 provinces. But even then, I do not believe the AI would not advance all across the 10 provinces if it sees weak forces opposing it and calculates it can win those battles. There are a number of buttons in the UI for controlling the plan, and I would expect how aggressive the AI will be should be one decision you can control. If you make it not overly aggressive with a Schwerpunkt then you might see it attack only along the arrow, but I doubt it. The AI will understand the command as place strong forces where the arrow is, but we maintain a front and aren't going to let the strong forces advance too far on their own, or they will get cut-off. And the flank units will say, "Howay guys, we are at war here, look at how weak those forces opposing us are, let's get stuck in as well."

If what happens is not exactly what you expected is this:
- your fault for positioning your breakthrough forces on a two province front instead of just one
- your fault for positioning them at that point on the border, other locations might be more suitable to allow the eastern flank to provide support to the western in the initial attack
- your fault for placing the arrow on the west not east
- dumb AI
- broken game
- stupid battle plan feature
- lack of counters, HOI3-style would have followed your commands better
- lack of OOB, having those 4 Divs attached to a Corps HQ in East Prussia would be better

If you implement the plan as shown, will you:
- learn from that experience in Poland and create better plans in future
- rage quit and fill the forums with 100s of posts complaining about the game


I have no idea what you are talking about, I showed an example of an attack that if executed will clearly only involve two divisions you have decided to ramble on about some other attack that you have imagined in your head.

Simple question if you order an attack in the example I have shown how many divisions will move into enemy territory on the first day?
 

potski

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General number Always increases with army size, what doesn´t increase is quality, which dpeends on other factors.

So it´s awful to have to spend power go get more generals, unless it´s only used once it goes past a certain limit.

Only past the limit of using all your existing generals.

Podcat mentioned in the video "there are only five of them" or something. But I take that to mean in the present state of the game they have only set-up five generals for Germany, not that will be the finished amount. My guess is that with HOI3 having I believe over 100 for Germany that we will see most of them. So you have plenty of choice and will never run out. That was the main complaint with HOI3 that it was possible to run out of generals, for all countries with no mechanism to then promote some people from below to Maj.Gen even if they weren't historical and had poor stats.

The limiting factor is much more likely to adversely affect minors. That makes world conquest type games difficult. And to just prevent gamey behaviour by players.
 

Kikaider

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Simple question if you order an attack in the example I have shown how many divisions will move into enemy territory on the first day?

Most likely answer(s):
A) If you allow enough time for the divisions to re-position themselves for the attack, THEN tell them to start the offensive: All
B) If you tell them to start the offensive the second you draw the arrows: Probably none, no one is in position to attack
 

Sakkura

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I have no idea what you are talking about, I showed an example of an attack that if executed will clearly only involve two divisions you have decided to ramble on about some other attack that you have imagined in your head.

Simple question if you order an attack in the example I have shown how many divisions will move into enemy territory on the first day?

If you give them time to move up to the front, I guess they might attack like this:

DX90k6W.jpg


Which would involve all 4 division when the attack begins, but across 2 provinces.

The arrow generated by the game does suggest an attack through only 1 province, but I'm not sure that's necessarily how the divisions will move. It's probably the behavior in situations like this that is taking Paradox a lot of time to work out.
 

Modestus

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Most likely answer(s):
A) If you allow enough time for the divisions to re-position themselves for the attack, THEN tell them to start the offensive: All
B) If you tell them to start the offensive the second you draw the arrows: Probably none, no one is in position to attack

Ha.

OK lets go through it step by step.

1\ Select 4 divisions and draw a Front line two provinces wide , logically the AI should then position two divisions in each province.

2\ Click on an enemy province and a single arrow is drawn to the players nearest province which should contain two Divisions.

3\ If you now order that whole army (4 divisions) to attack then its logical to assume that only two of your divisions will enter enemy territory on the first day and the other two will make there way first through German territory, they will not attack enemy units directly in front of them.