PDS please make France strong!

[Carbon]

France wasn't a pushover, but it was never stronger than Germany after '36. Germany is larger in population and more heavily industrialized with stronger military leadership; the Nazis, with their focus on transforming the German economy into a War machine and with totalitarian control over its population, had even more advantage.

I wouldn't say France was nerfed to the ground in HoI3, it often played out how it should and the player could still change quite a lot, especially given that they don't have to follow Paris' historical approach to focus on the defense rather than the offense, in regards to Germany.

 

[juv95hrn]

France is nerfed in most war games, if not numerically so with their combat ratings or crappy high command. And I am fine with that.

 

[Jazumir]

As i have tried to explain before:

In HoI4, there wont be much need to nerf France or buff Germany in order to get the historical ´40 result in AI vs. AI. They will both simply conduct the historical battleplans under close-to-historical conditions (doctrines et al.), supposedly leading to a similar outcome as in history, despite the numerical parity.
So France can actually get what it had. If you are playing france, you aren´t playing it to lose in ´40, i assume. If you play Germany... well, hopefully there will be an option to turn off the usage of historical battleplans by the AI and have it react more dynamically instead, for a challange.

 

[dschoen]

As i have tried to explain before:

In HoI4, there wont be much need to nerf France or buff Germany in order to get the historical ´40 result in AI vs. AI. They will both simply conduct the historical battleplans under close-to-historical conditions (doctrines et al.), supposedly leading to a similar outcome as in history, despite the numerical parity.
So France can actually get what it had. If you are playing france, you aren´t playing it to lose in ´40, i assume. If you play Germany... well, hopefully there will be an option to turn off the usage of historical battleplans by the AI and have it react more dynamically instead, for a challange.

I agree that this could solve the problem once and for all and is one of the reasons I think battle plans, if done well, will revolutionize the series. But we probably need a bit more information about how the AI will implement battle plans before we expect to see amighty French army thwarted by Gamelin's ineptitude. It's fun to speculate about the possibilities, though!

 

[Ethanol]

France was clearly not nerfed, I can't remember the number of games as SU or USA (even UK) where I had to save/load as france and delete half their units just so the Germans could actually advance into France and not repeat WW1 (which in itself is ahistorical, in WW1 the French barely managed to contain half of the German army with half the front held by the British army), thinking that France in 1v1 ever stood a chance towards Germany is typical French chauvinism...

Actually I think that they are overpowered considering their historical abilities.

 

[lemonsquid]

France was clearly not nerfed, I can't remember the number of games as SU or USA (even UK) where I had to save/load as france and delete half their units just so the Germans could actually advance into France and not repeat WW1 (which in itself is ahistorical, in WW1 the French barely managed to contain half of the German army with half the front held by the British army), thinking that France in 1v1 ever stood a chance towards Germany is typical French chauvinism...

Actually I think that they are overpowered considering their historical abilities.

yea I have to agree with you there. If UK hadnt showed up in WW1, France would have been steamrolled. So again in Hoi4, Germany naturally should win in an Ai vs Ai conflict.

 

[Tyson_48]

PDS please make France strong!

Now how that, they should turn France into an other county?

 

[Ingtar]

France was regarded as having the mightiest land army in Western Europe. However, that regard was ill-placed. Between the lack of manpower from the population loss in WWI, Socialism and riots weakening the industry and army, leadership looking backward to the last war, and a political class who thought Germany could never again be a threat, they were doomed. In reality, Germany would have dealt a greater defeat to the Allies if they had followed the plan the French and English expected. The BEF would have been trapped or destroyed, and France still would have fallen.

The USSR has been beefed up to ahistorical levels to offset the fact that even the AI will not make the same mistakes as the Germans. Should we truly buff the French so that Germany has to in turn be beefed up to have any chance? This is supposed to become more of a game and less of a simulation, if I understand the plans. Creating an overly strong France makes it a funless game. Perhaps there could be options to beef up one side or another. These would be great to use when playing the AI and when you want a greater challenge.

 

[1alexey]

yea I have to agree with you there. If UK hadnt showed up in WW1, France would have been steamrolled. So again in Hoi4, Germany naturally should win in an Ai vs Ai conflict.

+1.
The player, on the other hand can try to get more support aboard, attack Germany when it invades Poland, and such, basically making sure it is not pigeonholed into historical 1 vs 1 and defeated.

The USSR has been beefed up to ahistorical levels to offset the fact that even the AI will not make the same mistakes as the Germans. Should we truly buff the French so that Germany has to in turn be beefed up to have any chance? This is supposed to become more of a game and less of a simulation, if I understand the plans. Creating an overly strong France makes it a funless game. Perhaps there could be options to beef up one side or another. These would be great to use when playing the AI and when you want a greater challenge.

I don`t think USSR is beefed up to a historic level, USSR had a more than fair share of mistakes, and could`ve potentially drive Germans out by the end of 1942, but their mistakes led to far bigger then nececery encirclement's in 1941, and then again in 1942 counter-offensive SU found it`s forces trapped and swiftly destroyed, which they wouldn`t be, if SU would just hold the line or advance much slower without overextending.

 

[unmerged(161878)]

France strong!

France must lose because Germany can't attack Soviet Union when they have a strong French army behind.

Poland and Lithuania after 1920
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/IRP_Livland_voivodship.PNG

 

[Ingtar]

One of the things beefed up for the USSR is their industry.

427,000 trucks
13,000 combat vehicles
2000 ordinance vehicles
35,000 motor bikes
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Food 4,478,000 tons food

In game, USSR can do well without the above, historical Lend-Lease. In reality, they might have been able to slow/stop the Germans, but they never could have carried out the offensives to reach even Poland without help. Somehow, foreign help has to be better modeled to make this more like WWII.

 

[Charles Reeps]

France was clearly not nerfed, I can't remember the number of games as SU or USA (even UK) where I had to save/load as france and delete half their units just so the Germans could actually advance into France and not repeat WW1 (which in itself is ahistorical, in WW1 the French barely managed to contain half of the German army with half the front held by the British army), thinking that France in 1v1 ever stood a chance towards Germany is typical French chauvinism...

Actually I think that they are overpowered considering their historical abilities.

You've really seen this? I cannot count how many games I've played and I never saw this. And as for France being overpowered - I need to call BS The economy and manpower of France is nerfed beyond recognition. It is impossible to achieve the historic OOB France possessed by the time of the war. Also, if you build an army large enough to conquer Germany you won't even have the manpower to overcome the attrition that the army suffers during the ensuing peace.

 

[1alexey]

One of the things beefed up for the USSR is their industry.

427,000 trucks
13,000 combat vehicles
2000 ordinance vehicles
35,000 motor bikes
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Food 4,478,000 tons food

In game, USSR can do well without the above, historical Lend-Lease. In reality, they might have been able to slow/stop the Germans, but they never could have carried out the offensives to reach even Poland without help. Somehow, foreign help has to be better modeled to make this more like WWII.

USSR produced
197,100 trucks,
92,595 tanks and self-propelled viechles
and so forth.

Aside from Trucks and locomotives, SU got around 10-15% of overall things from LL. If it was more successful in opening of war, it would`ve done fine without LL.

That is, considering that in june 1941, SU army was actually more mechanized then German one, and not loosing mechanized corpses would`ve served Soviets well later.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

As i have tried to explain before:

In HoI4, there wont be much need to nerf France or buff Germany in order to get the historical ´40 result in AI vs. AI. They will both simply conduct the historical battleplans under close-to-historical conditions (doctrines et al.), supposedly leading to a similar outcome as in history, despite the numerical parity.
So France can actually get what it had. If you are playing france, you aren´t playing it to lose in ´40, i assume. If you play Germany... well, hopefully there will be an option to turn off the usage of historical battleplans by the AI and have it react more dynamically instead, for a challange.

We will see, but while I love HoI3, its military AI could be better.

If the above would work AI wise, the AI will be improved a lot in comparison with HoI3. Let's hope so, but the AI in HoI4 will probably has it flaws as it is with all computer wargames.

 

[Polarisan]

PDS please make Poland as stronk as it should be as well. I demand that the cavalry corps of Poland (which historically kicked ass) are able to stop the germans at Danzig and take Berlin by storm.

 

[Histenchist]

One of the things beefed up for the USSR is their industry.

427,000 trucks
13,000 combat vehicles
2000 ordinance vehicles
35,000 motor bikes
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Food 4,478,000 tons food

In game, USSR can do well without the above, historical Lend-Lease. In reality, they might have been able to slow/stop the Germans, but they never could have carried out the offensives to reach even Poland without help. Somehow, foreign help has to be better modeled to make this more like WWII.

The importance of Lend-Lease is probably the most exaggerated thing in history. Paraguay did about as much as the lend-lease act.

 

[jju_57]

As i have tried to explain before:

In HoI4, there wont be much need to nerf France or buff Germany in order to get the historical ´40 result in AI vs. AI. They will both simply conduct the historical battleplans under close-to-historical conditions (doctrines et al.), supposedly leading to a similar outcome as in history, despite the numerical parity.
So France can actually get what it had. If you are playing france, you aren´t playing it to lose in ´40, i assume. If you play Germany... well, hopefully there will be an option to turn off the usage of historical battleplans by the AI and have it react more dynamically instead, for a challange.

And then we all woke up and faced the cold reality that it still didn't refelct history. Sorry but this is a pipe dream. nice if it could but I bet real bitcoins that it won't.

 

[DPKdebator]

I wish not to be pushy, but maybe if there is a 1933 scenario and the point comes to where Germany mobilizes Rhineland the Allies have a decision (player only) to attack the Germans at that point fearing a war.

OR there could be something like "Gamechangers" which would be options you can turn on to give the game some zest like "France more powerful/France defends Ardennes"

 

[jdavis86]

In 1936 by the occupation of the Rhineland, France had 300,000 troops along the border. It was considered to be the best army in the world, and at that time probably was. Hitler had a SCANT force in the Rhineland. If France had chosen to push they would have crushed the Nazis, Hitler would've been deposed by the old Prussian military elite, and WW2 wouldn't have happened.

The problem in re-creating France accurately, is that they had the tools to beat Germany. A smart player will always make the right decisions, such as invading after the Rhineland.

 

[adam_grif]

France was not nerfed into ground. The amount of IC, LS and manpower is realistic, and all countries had less units in game then they had IRL.

France had significantly(2 times) smaller population then Germany with Austria and Czech, so how is it supposed to win without external help? That is, unless you`re fighting AI.

France did not have to fight 1:1 against the Germans, they had the vast maginot forts and could thus concentrate their strength in the Belgian region. They have the British commonwealth as an ally, who combined with France is more than a match for Germany if you're counting R&D, industry, available resources and manpower. If the Wehrmacht had failed to win in their 1940 offensive, a stalemate could have been achieved wherein the Western Allies build up strength and eventually push back. Against a full-strength France and Britain, the Italians probably wouldn't enter the war until '41 or '42, or potentially not at all. They were not prepared to take Southern France at the time.

Hearts of Iron 3 tries to do its darnest to make sure France falls in 1940. It doesn't work 100% of the time, but probably 95. The French manpower is so pitiful that even if stalemate is achieved, the French can barely reinforce their armies, which was NOT a problem they would have had historically, at least not on such a short timeframe. 3 years of trench warfare? Sure, that would have been a huge toll. Six months of fighting the low countries causing total manpower collapse? Absurd. The Germans can batter their way across the Maginot line if they need to, which is hilarious as well.