PBEM & SP balance mod - development thread

[Hiliadan]

Playing with PBEM Beta 1.29 and Shadow Realm, some of my heroes have abilities that are not sourced, or weirdly sourced.

Not a priority, please repost later maybe (or rather in Imprecise descriptions even if some might be related to balance mod, which you should ideally check).

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In the ToW, I can read the old descriptions that are in the Specs files, not the new ones that are in SPEC_DESCR. Have you reverted to them?

Please remind me on Steam, you can also check in the .xml.

Head of the Dullahan says it gives +2 vision range but it doesn't.

@Sin Arcain : can you please double check that and confirm the issue?

There's still an issue with Reef Colony: (Balance mod + SR mod)

1) A description issue in GameConcepts_DLC3.xml

NAME@REEF_COLONY
"Dwelling: Reef Colony (Merfolk)"
This is the English version and it isn't localized in any other language, that use: "Merfolk" instead.

2) A paging issue:
In the ToW, the page for "Dwelling: Reef Colony" lacks a line with a link to "Dwellings" (see other Dwelling pages); it lacks also any information/icon about the units that can be produced here (Mermaid, Lord of the Deep...). There's only information and icons about city upgrades.

Please report in imprecise descriptions.

Perhaps those mods would need some adaptation or further balancing to be voted by the PBEM & SP Balance mod's community, but why not submitting them to a pool, and asking what should be changed in them before they could be included?

Nobody asked for their integration but you and they do not have the same support as Racial Class Unit Reskin, so I'm still unconvinced.

 

[Rodmar18]

EDIT: and the bugs to correct:
- display bug to fix: Frozen Sphynx still moving

I fear it's not only about Frozen Sphynx, and rather about any animated flying unit when it is immobilized. For instance, I can remember a Caught in net Draconian Charger : one of the figures still hovers up and down while the others stand grounded and still!

 

[Hiliadan]

Reported recently and to check for v1.3:
- Elephants (T2) still have 8 gold upkeep after being Charmed, instead of having +25% upkeep as expected

 

[Sin Arcain]

Sorry, I didn't notice your question sooner, Hiliadan. I got that Head in the latest patch in a game where it worked correctly.

 

[Rodmar18]

Shoot Pistol

What about turning it into a short range ability, to better copy irl early dragoon riders? (given that they reload automatically, as compared to muskets). It would still be useful as a second line attack, and no more as a "sniper" attack.

Lesser True Vision

Is this scheduled? Or do we let any support unit be able to see hidden units?

Climb Wall & flying units

I find it odd that flying infantry units get the Climb Wall ability, if this means that they are penalized when on a wall hex. Any non infantry flying unit isn't penalized.
Perhaps Exalted could receive Improved Climb Wall (eventually, upon levelling up).

Queen Spider

What about having one of them Evil aligned (like Ungoliant)? I'd vote for Vampire (Queen) Spider, as it looks like escorting undead in defender lists.

Scoundrels & Sabotage

While I understand that they could be good at destroying machines, I don't understand how they can be more lethal to a wall section than a dedicated, explosive using sapper like an Engineer or a Dreadnought hero. If you want to rewiew Sabotage, here are two lists:

1. Demolisher: Units dealing extra +4 physical damage to machines and obstacles (and walls?) (aka Machine Slayer): Stone Giant, Frost Giant, any Berserker, Golem, Goblin Marauder, Troll, Bone Collector (x2), Goblin Big Beetle (x2)
2. Wall Crushing: Units able to attack walls with their melee attack (note that walls resist 100% cold damage): any Giant (giants, Ogre, Horn God), any Warbreed, Ram, Glutton, Bone Collector, Mamouth, Golem, Archon Titan, Troll, Elephant, Goblin Big Beetle, any Animal made feral.
3. Sabotage: Units dealing huge damage to machines and walls (10 phys. + 10 fire x3): any Scoundrel, Dreadnought heroes.

As you can see, machine wreckers (that can't attack walls as well) are Berserkers and Goblin Marauders (perhaps, I forgot some others, I didn't check levelling-up on the wiki).
Engineers can't damage walls, as it seems, but Scoundrels can. by the way, can't Shock Trooper get Sabotage too ?
Suggestion: Scoundrels get Demolisher (x2 or more) instead of Sabotage, and don't get Wall Crushing.

Else, rework Sabotage, so that it's either a x1 attack only, an attack on cooldown, or a use-once-per-battle-ability.

 

[Hiliadan]

Lesser True Vision

Is this scheduled? Or do we let any support unit be able to see hidden units?

What do you mean? What is Lesser True Vision?

Climb Wall & flying units

I find it odd that flying infantry units get the Climb Wall ability, if this means that they are penalized when on a wall hex. Any non infantry flying unit isn't penalized.
Perhaps Exalted could receive Improved Climb Wall (eventually, upon levelling up).

Have you checked that? Do Flying units get a malus?

For the rest, it's balance proposals, you should rather discuss them on the chat on the BF and convince some core group members to sponsor them.


Something to correct in v1.3:
- Extended Settings - Huge and Gigantic map sizes not available and replaced by Small Square and Medium Square [incompatibility]

 

[Rodmar18]

Lesser True Sight: I can't find it on the old Triumph forum, and it was briefly mentioned for living archons in Shadow Realm thread.

The idea is that any support unit being able to see hidden and invisible units might be too strong, if range of detection is the same as their vision range. There could be two abilities:

• current True Sight: heroes, creatures like dragons, ..., support units on Elite;
• a Lesser True Sight (or any other name): support units; range of detection is less than vision range (if possible).

Climb Wall & flying Infantry: no, I didn't check what happens when an Exhalted stops at a wall hex (if he can stops there).



Speaking of Triumph forum, I read (again) some old threads, and I found a "gem": I think that indeed, some ranged weapons should be downgraded to short range. It's not for balancing reason, it's for "realism" (I know...): Devs dubbed the ranged, single shot, physical attack as "Hurl Stone". And then, we have stones flying as accurately and as far away as slingshots and arrows.
Hurl Stone could be short range, and perhaps even, cost 0 AP (like Sun Javelin). It could be handed down to several units like a "weapon of the poor" (next to every Halfling unit to start with). In this case, I'd even have it become a x1 attack. Martyrs would either have the x3 or x1 attack and their short sword. I'd prefer this option over reducing the damage output of the attack (it would be more difficult to balance), even if a slingshot should be far more efficient than a stone thrown by hand.
Compare to Throw Cleavers: short range, x3.

 

[Hiliadan]

First feedback on v1.3:
- take Rodmar's latest FR files for the .xml
-GC11b
Mind-controlled units cost more in upkeep:+50% gold / turn (was +25%)
==> need to update the description of "Mind Controlled Unit" to say it's +50% now (and +75% for Regrowth)
- GC61c
Flying and Floating units get -12 HP/turn (i.e. effectively -6 HP/turn as natural healing is +6 HP/turn) when starting their turn over water. Mariner cancels that malus. Cannot Regenerate units (Machines, Undeads) are excluded.
==> also need to update the description: "This unit loses 6 [HealthPoint] if it begins its owner's turn on Water (Cannot Regenerate units are not affected and Mariner cancels that malus)."
- GC77
Siege Workshop (was Master' Guild) gives Repair Machine to Builders built in the city.
==> descriptions to update
- So11c
Dread Omen: 25 upkeep, 60 CP to cast, 60 CP to disjunct (was 40 upkeep, 60 CP, 80 CP to disjunct)
==> upkeep is at 20 now, instead of 25
- So11d
- Dome of Protection: 30 upkeep, 60 CP to cast, 60 CP to disjunct (was 20 upkeep, 100 CP, 120 CP to disjunct)
- Spell of Return: 80 CP to cast (was 100 CP)
- Age of Magic: 100 upkeep, 450 CP to disjunct (was 80 upkeep, 500 CP to disjunct)
==> Spell of Return is at 60 CP now instead of 80 CP
- GC61c
Flying and Floating units get -12 HP/turn (i.e. effectively -6 HP/turn as natural healing is +6 HP/turn) when starting their turn over water. Mariner cancels that malus. Cannot Regenerate units (Machines, Undeads) are excluded.
==> does not work on 3 tiers of Feys, Elite Apprentices (Draconian)
- GC30a
All Ziggurats now provide the same rewards: one or two items picked among Legendary and Mythical items, and between 0 and 281 gold in average, depending on the rarity and number of items received: 0 gold if 2 Mythical items are received, 281 gold if 1 Legendary item is received (was between 26.8 and 51.3 gold in the non-Naga Ziggurat and between 300 and 393 in the Naga Ziggurat)
[technically speaking, Gold Reward Multiplier is set at 0 in "Ziggurat default DUPLICATE" in Structure_DLC2.rpk. Excess gold reward multiplier is set at 0.75 in all the reward sets of Ziggurat (two)]
==> does not seem implemented (at least for Phoenix / Gold Dragon set)
- AD20c
Sunburst: deals 20 fire damage (was 15 fire damage)
==> description to update (+ check it is really implemented)
- So11e
Lightning Storm: 7 physical and 13 shock damage (was 5 physical, 10 shock)
==> description to update (+ check it is really implemented)
- GC61a
Swimming now uses 4 MP/hex on the strategic map. Sea Creatures get Natural Swimming and still uses 3 MP/hex.
Sea Creatures do not take attack of opportunity when moving near other units (like Flyers near walking units).
==> I think we already discussed that but don't remember exactly: the current behaviour is like Sprint, not like Flying units. Engaged Flying units take attack of opportunities when disengaging. They don't take them only if they move from point A to point B with point A not adjacent to enemy units.

Still need to be implemented:
- Solar Spire can be added to items in the Arcane Item Forge
- "Convert" skill for Theocrat leaders do not display the resistance properly but instead display {{ResistValue}}, at least when the skill is not chosen (i.e. still in the list of skills you can pick for the Leader) and when Produce Evangelist is not researched (beta branch v1.29)
- display bug to fix: Frozen Sphynx still moving

Two new ones:
- Elephants (T2) still have 8 gold upkeep after being Charmed, instead of having +25% upkeep as expected
- Extended Settings - Huge and Gigantic map sizes not available and replaced by Small Square and Medium Square [incompatibility]

================================
EDIT:
- Solid Chain of Coif of Heroes (Strong) apparently in the Epic category (to correct also on SDNR)


Still to be checked by Hiliadan:
GC79
Obsidian Armor of the Black Knight gives 40% Blight, Fire, Frost, Shock, Spirit Protection and +2 Defense (was 60% light, Fire, Frost, Shock, Spirit Protection and +3 Defense)

GC80
Frost Wyvern Egg, Fire Wyvern Egg, Cursed Egg are Legendary (was Epic)

GC81
Draconian Diet Dish is Legendary (was Mythical)

- Clearing an Item Rack with Very Weak defenders sometimes give no reward. This is due to Item Racks getting +50% defenders due to Strong defenders settings but not getting +50% reward value for some unknown reasons. So the multiplier must be reverted back to 0.7 (from 0.47).

This one couldn't be fixed:
- Dire Panther Mask's shapeshifting does not make Convert disappear from the hero's abilities so he can still Convert units. Furthermore, it's reset and can be used a 2nd time (after a first try as a hero)

And for this one, Lesser Resurrect actually is not used in the balance mod, so no need to have it in .xml:
- is it possible to have Lesser Resurrect out of the .acp file and in one of the mod's xml files? (for localization reasons)

 

[Rodmar18]

- display bug to fix: Frozen Sphynx still moving

For what's worth, this display bug is not limited to Frozen + Sphinx.
I remember a caught in net (or webbed?) Draconian Charger: one of the figures is still hopping above the net.
My guess: any immobilization status + any unit with flying animation while idle could trigger this bug.

 

[Hiliadan]

@Zaskow : In the map Editor, I see multiple Cursed Eggs, Fire Wyvern Eggs, Frost Wyvern Eggs (duplicates). Any idea why? Isn't that going to cause issues if the wrong one is in a reward set?

- Clearing an Item Rack with Very Weak defenders sometimes give no reward. This is due to Item Racks getting +50% defenders due to Strong defenders settings but not getting +50% reward value for some unknown reasons. So the multiplier must be reverted back to 0.7 (from 0.47).

This is actually something to change in SDNR. But I made some tests and it appears that even without SDNR, it's possible to get 0 item.
EDIT: this is very weird, I checked the mod tools and the Item reward multiplier is indeed 0.7. In theory Very Weak defenders = 125 gold reward value. x0.7 = 87.5. Even with a variance of +/- 20%, that should go only to 70 gold. And a Common item has a value of 50 gold, so a Common item should always be given as a reward. I don't get what's going on... /EDIT

I checked the 3 other changes I hadn't time to check last time and they are properly implemented. So now, the only things to check for v1.3 are the issues with v1.3v1 and the 3 additional issues with Elephants, Solid Chain of Coif of Heroes and Extended Settings.

 

[Hiliadan]

These ones still seem unimplemented or buggy:

- take Rodmar's latest FR files for the .xml
-GC11b
Mind-controlled units cost more in upkeep:+50% gold / turn (was +25%)
==> need to update the description of "Mind Controlled Unit" to say it's +50% now (and +75% for Regrowth)
- So11d
- Dome of Protection: 30 upkeep, 60 CP to cast, 60 CP to disjunct (was 20 upkeep, 100 CP, 120 CP to disjunct)
- Spell of Return: 80 CP to cast (was 100 CP)
- Age of Magic: 100 upkeep, 450 CP to disjunct (was 80 upkeep, 500 CP to disjunct)
==> Spell of Return is at 60 CP now instead of 80 CP
- GC61c
Flying and Floating units get -12 HP/turn (i.e. effectively -6 HP/turn as natural healing is +6 HP/turn) when starting their turn over water. Mariner cancels that malus. Cannot Regenerate units (Machines, Undeads) are excluded.
==> does not work on 3 tiers of Feys, Elite Apprentices (Draconian)
- GC30a
All Ziggurats now provide the same rewards: one or two items picked among Legendary and Mythical items, and between 0 and 281 gold in average, depending on the rarity and number of items received: 0 gold if 2 Mythical items are received, 281 gold if 1 Legendary item is received (was between 26.8 and 51.3 gold in the non-Naga Ziggurat and between 300 and 393 in the Naga Ziggurat)
[technically speaking, Gold Reward Multiplier is set at 0 in "Ziggurat default DUPLICATE" in Structure_DLC2.rpk. Excess gold reward multiplier is set at 0.75 in all the reward sets of Ziggurat (two)]
==> does not seem implemented (at least for Phoenix / Gold Dragon set)
- GC61a
Swimming now uses 4 MP/hex on the strategic map. Sea Creatures get Natural Swimming and still uses 3 MP/hex.
Sea Creatures do not take attack of opportunity when moving near other units (like Flyers near walking units).
==> I think we already discussed that but don't remember exactly: the current behaviour is like Sprint, not like Flying units. Engaged Flying units take attack of opportunities when disengaging. They don't take them only if they move from point A to point B with point A not adjacent to enemy units.

Still need to be implemented:
- Solar Spire can be added to items in the Arcane Item Forge
- "Convert" skill for Theocrat leaders do not display the resistance properly but instead display {{ResistValue}}, at least when the skill is not chosen (i.e. still in the list of skills you can pick for the Leader) and when Produce Evangelist is not researched (beta branch v1.29) [this is the case only in the unit panel when you haven't chosen the skill yet, when it's displayed as "Convert" and not as "Lesser Convert"]
- display bug to fix: Frozen Sphynx still moving [I didn't check this one]

- Extended Settings - Huge and Gigantic map sizes not available and replaced by Small Square and Medium Square [incompatibility]

================================
EDIT:
- Solid Chain of Coif of Heroes (Strong) apparently in the Epic category (to correct also on SDNR)

GC61b
In the end the description of Flying and Floating should be updated with something like: "This unit's regeneration is decreased by 12 [HealthPoint] if it begins its owner's turn on Water (Cannot Regenerate units are not affected)."

- GC77
Siege Workshop (was Master' Guild) gives Repair Machine to Builders built in the city.
==> description of Master' Guild still to update to remove the mention of Repair Machine.

Strong Item racks seem to be improperly linked to Strong items and not Epic items as planned.

 

[Rodmar18]

GC61b:
By the way, did you examine the possibility to grant flying and floating units a new passive ability not unlike the "Decaying" ability for corpses?
E.g. "Not Sustained" "This unit's regeneration is decreased by 12 [HealthPoint] if it begins its owner's turn on Water (Cannot Regenerate units are not affected)."
It is assumed that transported units are sustained, as well as Marine/Sea Creatures. However, I wonder how a Swimming land unit could sustain itself (even if it was a balancing issue for flying units, at first).

 

[Zaskow]

Rodmar18
Problem is 'if it begins its owner's turn on Water' thing. There is no way in editor to get to unit new properties on some terrain/overlay. Only things you can do are: morale buff/debuff and additional healing. While editor lets you to set negative values for HP regeneration on practice it won't work - unit doesn't lose hp at all.

 

[Hiliadan]

GC61b:
By the way, did you examine the possibility to grant flying and floating units a new passive ability not unlike the "Decaying" ability for corpses?
E.g. "Not Sustained" "This unit's regeneration is decreased by 12 [HealthPoint] if it begins its owner's turn on Water (Cannot Regenerate units are not affected)."
It is assumed that transported units are sustained, as well as Marine/Sea Creatures. However, I wonder how a Swimming land unit could sustain itself (even if it was a balancing issue for flying units, at first).

I didn't get what you mean. As Zaskow said, basically we did give a negative Wetland Foraging (but on Water), but it just limits regeneration, it doesn't cause HP loss.
Which makes me think, maybe we could give those units a base -12 HP Decaying with a +12 HP "foraging" on all land types? So on Water, they would lose 12 HP?

 

[Rodmar18]

Yes, I was just asking about how the info would be displayed to the player (to be precise, about the name of the ability, and its source (flying unit?)). Now I understand that it only reduces or cancels health regeneration!

So, does having a reduced regeneration rate depending on terrain work? Can you have the same unit regenerating 6hp/day over land, 3hp/day over mountain (or any hatred terrain), 0 hp/day (= cannot regenerate) over water and lava pools?

As for swimming units, are there many units that can swim and are not "natural" swimmer? Just to see if the malus for flying units over water couldn't be extended to non natural swimmers while swimming (not for balance sake, but for self-consistency sake: they too can't feed from water life, nor can't they rest while in/over water). If I recall well, some unis that can swim have a foraging hability (fishing?) by the way: this could prevent them to not regenerate while crossing water.

On your last idea, you basically suggest to add a "Tiring Exercise" ("This unit is crossing a water body, wasting a vaste amount of energy and cannot regenerate." or "has a limited regeneration") status to flying units over water (and in my idea, to non natural swimmers as well) that acts like the status you get from Death March (Warlord's spell). Perhaps something useful could be found in that direction?

 

[Hiliadan]

So, does having a reduced regeneration rate depending on terrain work? Can you have the same unit regenerating 6hp/day over land, 3hp/day over mountain (or any hatred terrain), 0 hp/day (= cannot regenerate) over water and lava pools?

Yes it's possible (see Wetland Foraging), but better to speak about that on Steam than on the development thread.

As for swimming units, are there many units that can swim and are not "natural" swimmer?

It depends what you mean by natural swimmer (and again, not a topic to be debated here), but there are very very few Sea Creature so nerfing non-Sea Creature swimmer (as we are doing with 4 MP/hex instead of 3 MP/hex) has a big impact.

The Tiring exercice thing is impossible technically. It was basically our initial idea.

 

[El_Lobo1986]

I like Rodmar's idea changing something with demolisher, wall crushing and sabotage. We should bring it to the core group.

Regarding -12 HP for flyers starting their turn over water. Did this get enough support from the core group? I really doubt that. As I remember me and Marcus voted for a lesser malus. Additionally the negative regeneration should be added for starting the turn over lava too.

 

[Hiliadan]

Regarding -12 HP for flyers starting their turn over water. Did this get enough support from the core group?

The votes I registered were all in favour. And then only keika against.

For -12 HP over Lava you did say only -6 and you also said you thought it should also be less for "over water" but I didn't update the initial vote. I don't think marcus opposed it (that's not what I registered anyway).
I'm unclear what is your position now though because the initial change was -12 HP (so in effect -6 HP loss after natural regeneration) whereas now it's very toned down as it's only -12 HP regeneration/turn, which means you never actually lose HP. You just don't gain them back. So I think it meets your expectation, doesn't it?

 

[El_Lobo1986]

My PM outbox says...

Gesendet an 2020-05-25 01:07:53
...174: For a regeneation malus but against -12. Minus 6 is enough.

and 2020 Jul 26 15:21 El_Lobo
As I said before imo -12 HP per turn is too much. Keep it as it is if you can't include it properly.

That's two times a clear "no" to -12!

 

[Zaskow]

Guys, do you ever consider any other nerf to flyers? IMAO, this nerf is pretty pointless, except maybe island maps.