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Meneth

Crusader Kings 3 Programmer
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Feb 9, 2011
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This thread is dedicated to suggestions, bug reports, and feedback for the autonomy faction recently introduced in Project Balance.

Summary of the system from the changelog:

All crown authority factions have been merged into a single faction that is more responsive to the actions of their liege, and have more actions they can take.
Every 3 to 7 years they hold a meeting to determine what action they'll take. If they're in a bad mood they might issue an ultimatum to their liege, but if treated well they will not be much of a threat.
They're potentially a much greater threat than the old factions however, as the faction is global to the realm rather than specific to a single dejure kingdom or empire
 
Is it possible to rework the autonomy system so that only the members of the faction get the increased autonomy. If so, that would be awesome.
I'm afraid that's impossible. Crown laws are title-wide.
The "demand money" action only gives money to faction members though, and the "demand a county given up" action will always give the county to a faction member (one with a claim if possible, if not the leader gets it).
 
I'm afraid that's impossible. Crown laws are title-wide.
The "demand money" action only gives money to faction members though, and the "demand a county given up" action will always give the county to a faction member (one with a claim if possible, if not the leader gets it).
And economic and military cooperation neutral outcomes only benefit the faction members, right?
 
And economic and military cooperation neutral outcomes only benefit the faction members, right?
That's right. And only their capitals, as otherwise it'd be too powerful (plus I want to discourage the gamey tactic of only having count vassals).
 
That's right. And only their capitals, as otherwise it'd be too powerful (plus I want to discourage the gamey tactic of only having count vassals).


I think that this is a flawed policy for the Autonomy Faction (AF).


One reason you chose to apply the cooperation modifier(s) to only AF member capitals was to discourage count-vassal-only tactics (and presumably encourage a fully fleshed out feudal hierarchy?) I assert that you should take another look at this analysis then.


That rule (only to boost faction member capitals vs. applying a lighter, uniform modifier to all provinces in each faction member's subrealm, incl. demesne) clearly incentivizes the player, ceteris paribus, to maximize the number of faction member capitals (and therefore faction members per province) so as to maximize levy or economic boosts to the realm (ergo, to the top liege). A liege's realm with a proper feudal hierarchy will benefit far less from cooperation than a count-only realm, in contrast with a system that blanketed each faction member's subrealm in total and did not favor the faction member capital.


Since the modifiers are all relative anyway, such a uniform distribution over the vassal subrealm would scale seamlessly with the realm_size and, indeed, the actual military or economic power of all faction members, individually and in aggregate relative to the liege. Indeed, not doing it this way will result in a very arbitrary bonus to the realm from these faction outcomes that does not align with the intent/idea of cooperation. It's roughly analogous to passing a law/policy that raises feudal levies/taxes (or just generally affects) on only an arbitrary province set rather than a specific set of vassal contracts (i.e., all of the AF, each member being a direct vassal that, by contract, represents his/her full subrealm to his liege).


An example of this being distorted:


Suppose your direct, non-baron vassalage consists of 4 single-province counts and 4 kings, averaging out to each with 3 demesne provinces + 4 duke vassals (themselves with 2 demesne provinces and 3 single-province counts each). All 8 eligible direct vassals are members of the AF, the ideal case for non-distortion [in other ways] here. Assume all the realm counties are roughly similar in levy size and tax income, on average (no massive variance, overall-- also the ideal case for non-distortion with the current system).


The current approach for military/economic cooperation would boost the levies or taxes in 8 counties with a total realm bonus of 8 * the cooperation modifiers * the average province base tax/levy. However, the realm, excluding whatever's in the top liege's demesne (irrelevant), consists of 4 + 4(3 + 4(2 + 3)) = 4*24 = 96 counties-- a cooperation boost applied to 1 out of every 12 of the rest of the realm's counties.


4 faction members, the counts (4 faction votes), benefitted 100% from the voted-upon cooperation outcome. The other half of the faction (or 4*3=12 votes, so the other 75% of the voting base) benefitted from 1/23 coverage, or 4.3% of their realm. That is a different type of distortion that would be solved by uniform cooperation modifier coverage. Using proper feudal hierarchy makes the very faction's own outcome essentially moot for 95.8% of its holding-weighted constituency, due in this case to the AF member capital-county-only rule but also worsened by vote weight imbalance.


A liege electing to employ said gamey tactic, however, will simply have 96 direct count vassals in the same realm and would enjoy 100% cooperation bonus coverage for the realm, or a relative boost from cooperation of +1100% over what makes sense. Yes, that is over a thousand percent better boost to total levies or economic development if you ditch the proper feudal system, and this example is generous for comparison purposes.


If modifiers were applied uniformly across all AF member subrealms, both cooperation outcomes would have been identical-- neither favoring gamey count-only tactics nor discouraging it directly, while the boost in relative military/economic strength of the AF to its liege (what I suspect you were thinking would discourage count-only vassal tactics) would also be identical in both cases with such a uniform modifier application.


Furthermore, vassals have their own subrealm and their own own AF with which to contend. If you applied the cooperation bonus modifiers uniformly, they would have the opportunity to stack on lower- and lower-rank vassals' subrealms/demesne (each level of stacking empowering the lower ranks relative to the higher ranks but floating all boats in the process) in a properly organized feudal hierarchy, which is an immediate disincentive to flatten your hierarchy. It properly models the scalability of organized cooperation as well, as well as the dangers of inefficiently managing larger and larger numbers of vassal relationships. I would propose that second and third levels of cooperation bonus (emperor, king, or duke liege) are each slightly smaller than the next-higher-tier.


Another reason to adopt a uniform bonus:


It will not give higher-tier lords artificial protection against insurrection within their own subrealm-- just make them more powerful/wealthy relative to their liege than they were before the cooperation. AF members in a higher court should not be able to enact outcomes that, as a side-effect, increase their military or economic power relative to their own subrealms' AF / their own vassals, which is exactly what the current implementation does by happenstance.
 
Yes, but Isnt the autonomy faction trying to override your policies as well? So having only counts would make it harder since every rebel province would have a bonus instead of only your dukes capitals.

Yes, and if instead you applied the modifier to the entire faction member's subrealm (all their demesne provinces plus all the demesne provinces of any realm lords under them-- not just vassal capitals) and simply balanced the province modifier's bonus to compensate for the blanket AF subrealm coverage instead of covering a few counties in practice, you would make the the relative change in power to liege equal in either scenario (all-counts vs. full feudal hierarchy) as well as the total average realm boost but enjoy incentivization of proper feudal hierarchy and delegation as well for the other (subset of) reasons I mentioned. Thus, among the many advantages, it would actually discourage only-counts-as-vassals on all fronts. Ceteris paribus on the isolated topic of danger of rebellion, it would just make counts-as-vassals and proper-feudal-hierarchy just equivalent (many other reasons would make it much harder to control your own realm as the liege to an AF if you only had lots and lots of counts as vassals).
 
Several more suggestions to put on the table for the Autonomy Faction (AF), grouped into two main topics (the first of which is perhaps more boring but I think important):

AFs are currently disabled for duke-tier titles (kingdoms and empires only). I think it should be activated for dukes as well, especially if military and economic cooperation outcomes are altered in the way for which my previous fervent suggestion/critique suggests would be more optimal (i.e., do not try to artificially discourage count-vassals-only gaming and instead let the system work naturally and fairly through blanket bonus modifiers applied to cooperating AF members' sub-realms rather than just their capital [demesne] county). Not only does this put autonomy pressure on the whole realm rather than just the top liege or vassal kings (a rare sight, in practice), it adds the extra flavor and fun of managing your AF when you're a duke (or a superduke, especially). It would also add another element to strategy when managing realms with the full feudal hierarchy in place due to stacking modifiers from your vassals' happy AFs, if you should be so lucky (technically neutral vassal AFs, but in my experience where I'm managing realms expertly, they either are happy but never do anything about it or they are neutral and cooperate, the latter of which is ~95% of the total outcomes I've seen).

I realize that the negative outcomes relating to repealing crown laws would have to be disabled in the duke's case (easy enough, just do what the code already does when there's nothing to repeal-- lower obligations). Also, I think more thought would have to put into what kind of challenges and boons dukes will encounter that kings won't necessarily, and thus probably some of the mechanics would need be adjusted for duke AFs. Indeed, Meneth, it is possible that you simply limited it to king- and empire-tier first to get it stable and balanced and left the possibility of duke-level AFs for the future. Well, in that case, I do think it should be queued-up. CK2+'s Princely Faction still applied at the duchy level, which was a lot of fun. [The other factions were just a distraction to me.]

Duchy stability would not receive any dramatic hit, as though they must play count-vassals-only, they only have a few vassals to manage, which is the crux of why the so-called North Korea Mode totally fails-- scalability. Since they are forced to only have counts as vassals, though, this would put more pressure on great-great dukes. Admittedly, it would be better if the AF had more negative outcomes which actually could encourage direct splitting of the realm in that case (demanding a secondary duchy title, e.g., the new holder of which would be already landed within its de jure boundaries and awarded by an AF election using opinion_diff = { ... as_if_liege = yes }).

The Duke of Aquitaine in 1066, e.g., would be a lot less likely to successfully force France into elective and then end up effectively forming the Great Archdukedom of Aquitaine (rather than the kingdom) after he inevitably wins his independence, despite having sufficient counties, gold, and piety to form the Kingdom of Aquitaine (?! Gavelkind, why must you still break that AI's brains?). Basically he needs to be nerfed by default, something that the AF would likely assist in that case. Besides, don't you think his half of France wants autonomy too? Why don't they get to join a faction to attempt to do so like their duke counterparts in the north of France can? What is special about the 'duke' title that would make holders of it immune to vassals that prioritize autonomy while kings are not immune to this? If we care about punishing so-called North Korea Mode, why are we not punishing ultradukes for having 15+ count vassals as they expand?

Most importantly, though, the AF adds an extra element of fun to playing. I want to be forced to deal with my [intrinsically] autonomy-focused counts, especially as I go through the growing pains of moving from a weak duke or count to an ultraduke on the verge of usurping/creating a kingdom. I also want to be commended or gifted by my vassals for a change; maybe that might happen if I have enough happy ones and am exposed to AF meetings no matter what tier my character is currently playing. Since I know the AF still has a lot more potential than what it even currently brings to the table, I especially want to be able to interact with my vassals/liege via an AF at all tiers, because I know that potential will get increasingly fleshed-out and balanced in time.

It is truly rare for me to start at the king- or empire-tier. It usually takes a long time (though not long enough) to make it to that tier, and I don't get to play with the autonomy faction at all in the interim. I'm pretty confident that I'm not alone in the like-to-start-small camp, so there are a lot of people spending the vast majority of their game time without ever managing an AF.

Speaking of managing AFs (on to the second aforementioned topic):

We need to implement more ways in which the mood of the AF can be boosted temporarily, either short- or long-term, rather than modeling it as a purely stateless, static, reactionary function of laws, traits, and opinion. For one, there could be temporary mood swings.

They might be based upon victorious wars, provinces converted to the "realm religion," recent succession (bad), crusade victories/losses (mega-wars with a lot of glory), realm-wide tournaments (if only they'd live up to their calling-- not quite there yet) for a minor bonus, a bonus for every internal revolt crushed, bonuses for consecutive years of peace up to some cap, a malus for every instance of raising a vassal's liege levy (per-vassal, so think about whether you really need to Raise All Levies or not)-- basically, temporal modifiers derived from the actual successes and failures of your realm as well as the autonomy-impinging and autonomy-enabling actions taken while maneuvering your realm through those successes and failures.

These kinds of AF vote modifiers would also improve the player's ability to causally link his/her actions as a ruler and general outcomes of the game to the mood of the AF, something that currently suffers from too much transparency and (relatively) arbitrary / static modifiers (often things you just can't do anything about and aren't very visible at all-- not even with the help of a slide rule and the AF scoring spreadsheet most of you've probably seen by now), and this more direct correlation of in-game actions and outcomes to AF meeting moods and their chosen courses of action would greatly improve player satisfaction.

Further, all these temporal modifiers encourage the player to actually achieve (or fail) at various such things essentially all the time in order to prevent rebellion due to the, e.g., more leeway granted toward CA due to a tradition of successful temporal achievements-- micro-ambitions to always be multitasking and for which to be preparing, driving the player to always have something to do and a reason to do it, greatly improving player satisfaction as well.

In other words, we can make the AF work more like it would in the real world through temporal modifiers. Not only would we improve the gameplay / satisfaction factor [more], but I'm convinced that temporal modifiers are required to balance the AF and free it from being a repetitive function of the same things that cannot reasonably be changed (except for maybe removing title revocation, once in your ruler's life), assuming you already play to maximize opinion of direct vassals (obviously).

Indeed, we can even get very deep and make the temporal modifiers all per-member of the AF so that different types of temporal stimulus will affect diversely-disposed members differently on a case-by-case basis. Members with, say, a lot of zeal will care more about religious successes that they helped their liege, indeed at least through their implicit cooperation, achieve (e.g., winning or even participating in a victorious crusade is probably going to give the liege ample leeway to squeeze some necessary autonomy from those members in the process and for some time afterward, but a humble, slothful, cynic that is nowhere near the infidels is probably going to be only slightly fazed by such a glorious temporal outcome).

If we went to this level, then you'd really need to cooperate with your vassals in a greater sense. Regardless of your own ambitions, you'll need to find the time and resources to pander to your particular, dynamically changing set of vassals' ambitions/concerns at all times if you expect to have the authority to push your own agenda as well. This is how Charlemagne, fief by fief, conquered and built arguably the largest, particularly in terms of wealth, feudal demesne in Christian history before even hitting 50 (died in his late 70s). He knew his many, many vassals well, and they were willing to get behind him, fund him, and man his armies because he reliably, successfully fulfilled their concerns/ambitions as he went, and even when the cycle of successful conquest was over and the spoils all distributed (or in Charles' vast demesne), his realm was fully stable during his lifetime, with what we'd now call high crown authority no less, because he continued to take into account actions that would please the majority of his vassals. For example, one might argue his acceptance of being crowned the first Holy Roman Emperor was, while stroking his own ego no doubt too, in spite of his personal agenda or beliefs (his lifestyle clearly indicated that, though he was pretty much a True Christian Knight himself, he personally promoted progressive policies / behaviors among his court and family that were strictly forbidden or even considered heretical by Rome). He wrote in his diary that he was quite reluctant to accept, shocked when the Pope presented the opportunity, and concerned about the political effects of acceptance both outside of his realm (the ERE) and for his descendants (cynical regarding the idea of an official "holy" empire, let alone being personally elevated above all men). And then he went ahead and just decided to accept anyway. Could the thought "What will the people that matter most in my kingdom think if I turn down an official blessing of my realm, above all others holy, from the Roman Catholic Church? I've no choice, right?" have occurred to him?

Yes, that was a lot about Charlemagne. The whole darned point, though, is that vassals are never sheep; they all want autonomy. If you don't demonstrate that you care about what they do too, if you don't exploit that which you have in common with vassals' general disposition and ambitions, if you don't even take one for the team sometimes and outright pander to, say, a bunch of overzealous vassals (say, when you're a cynic mostly concerned about securing your legacy for your sons and consolidating your demesne) and make sure you actively convert provinces and consistently keep pushing-back the Moor every 10-15 year so that those vassals are fulfilled-- all temporal maintenance outcomes that cannot be trivially covered by the current way faction voting is scored, then you should never be able to accomplish your own personal ambitions, because your vassals will rise up and take everything away from you, unsatisfied by your rule, and not achieving the level of autonomy they think appropriate for what you actually do for them (until, finally, it's abdication time).

I have some ideas on how to implement temporal modifiers per-member of the AF (which factors then into each member's vote). It's definitely doable, especially since even 2-3 such modifiers would make a serious difference. We really want to reinforce a causal link between player actions, aside from the mundane stuff like managing opinion (which is a small deal anyway in the vote scoring), and how their vassals choose to interact with them. All this stuff _would_ work with an opinion modifiers implementation + some scaffolding, but opinion modifiers are overloaded with junk unfortunately. I've also some ideas on how to generally find the common ground between liege and vassals in a way that isn't transparent before taking the actions that would please your vassals. Think: Knights of The Round Table.

But I've written enough for now; I think that's enough AF input for a couple weeks. This is how much I like PB's budding new feature, the Autonomy Faction, and how much potential I believe it has.
 
Holy Wall of text Batman! :eek:
This is the first reason why my post count is so low relative to the amount of my actual time spent on these forums. ;)
 
<Wall of text about autonomy cooperation>
I think you've got a good point. Feel free to make a pull request that gives the whole vassal realm the bonus instead of just the capital (with a nerfed effect, obviously), or wait for me to do it myself sometime between 3.4.1 and 3.4.2

<Wall of text about duke factions>
I think that's a good idea for the future, but that the autonomy faction doesn't have enough depth unrelated to crown laws for it to make sense to implement.
Once it has sufficient depth, extending it to dukes will make sense.
 
I think you've got a good point. Feel free to make a pull request that gives the whole vassal realm the bonus instead of just the capital (with a nerfed effect, obviously), or wait for me to do it myself sometime between 3.4.1 and 3.4.2
K. Cool.

I think that's a good idea for the future, but that the autonomy faction doesn't have enough depth unrelated to crown laws for it to make sense to implement. Once it has sufficient depth, extending it to dukes will make sense.
Well, that is good to hear. Temporal modifiers to AF mood would be a way to add depth unrelated to crown laws.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on those?
 
Well, that is good to hear. Temporal modifiers to AF mood would be a way to add depth unrelated to crown laws.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on those?
Having modifiers like those (to some extent at least; as with everything moderation is the key to success) is a good idea, yes.
It is something I attempted to move a bit closer to when I extended the range of trait modifiers, but there's still a bit further to go.
 
Just had the autonomy "faction" of one dude (a single county count, wth 2.2% of my strength, who I had in fact elevated to a count from nothing....) "demand elimination of title revocation..." I naturally said hell no and took his land post-rebellion, but really either you should go like CK2+ and have an automatic CTA for all vassals, with those liking you less than the rebel siding with the rebellion, or check so they don't make such silly demands when they're so hopelessly weak.:p
 
Just had the autonomy "faction" of one dude (a single county count, wth 2.2% of my strength, who I had in fact elevated to a count from nothing....) "demand elimination of title revocation..." I naturally said hell no and took his land post-rebellion, but really either you should go like CK2+ and have an automatic CTA for all vassals, with those liking you less than the rebel siding with the rebellion, or check so they don't make such silly demands when they're so hopelessly weak.:p
The thing about CTAs for everyone is that it isn't actually possible to tell the game which wars they should join. So if the faction leader is running more than one offensive war, they'll join all of them.
Of course, that can be alleviated by ending all other offensive wars when the faction war starts, but that's not really entirely desirable either.

I will probably add a few modifiers based on faction strength though.
 
In my recent game, (867 ERE) almost all vassals immediately joined the autonomy fraction.
Within about 4 years into tho game, they decided that they are unhappy with my rule, although most of them have an opinion of me between 70 and 100. (Probably because I invoked internal peace).
Then they requested “remove title revokation” and soon declared war on me.
This war was almost impossible for me to win as I faced about 80% of my vassals. Victory might have been possible somehow, but it would take a lot of time.

What did I do wrong? Should I not have invoked internal peace? If the vassals are so unhappy about it, why did they agree with it during the vote?
 
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In my recent game, (867 ERE) almost all vassals immediately joined the autonomy fraction.
Within about 4 years into tho game, they decided that they are unhappy with my rule, although most of them have an opinion of me between 70 and 100. (Probably because I invoked internal peace).
Then they requested “remove title revokation” and soon declared war on me.
This war was almost impossible for me to win as I faced about 80% of my vassals. Victory might have been possible somehow, but it would take a lot of time.

What did I do wrong? Should I not have invoked internal peace? If the vassals are so unhappy about it, why did they agree with it during the vote?
Next version the faction will be quite a bit more rational. For one, I've given a +2 factor across the board, which means they'll move slightly more positively all the time.
And secondly, in the next version when you coerce a vassal to "leave" factions with your spymaster he'll be unable to vote negatively for 10 years. So with tactical use of your spymaster you should be able to keep the faction in check.

The Byzantines do start in an especially precarious situation though, as their crown authority is very high for such an early date. Maybe I'll tie some positive autonomy factor to the theme system laws.