Patriachates: a flavour mechanic for orthodox and coptic religions

Patriachates: a flavour mechanic for orthodox and coptic religions

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Basileios Makedon

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Ok, this post is going to be long, so prepare yourselves

Orthodox Christianity. One of the biggest religions in the world, adopted by very important countries like Russia or Byzantium. And how it’s represented in the game? 5 events and a lineal mechanic that sometimes doesn’t make any sense. In CK2 the patriarchs were represented well, but not in EU4. So I suggest this mechanic to add flavour to orthodoxy and maybe Coptic, because Coptic also had patriarchs:

Different Patriarchs and Patriarch control:

Obviously, there wasn’t a Patriarch in every orthodox nation in game. Perm hadn’t a Patriarch. So I think that there should be determinate patriarch tied to certain provinces. I think there should be the following at game start, not for historical reasons, just for gameplay reasons:

-Patriarch of Constantinople: Constantinople

-Patriarch of Bulgaria: Tarnovo

-Patriarch of Serbia: Srbija

-Patriarch of Wallachia: Muntenia

-Patriarch of Georgia: Kartli

-Patriarch of Ruthenia: Kiev

-Patriarch of Russia: Moscow

The nation who control a patriarch province will control the patriarch and will gain access to some special action explained below.

Patriarch influence:

This is a value tied to a Patriarch, and not to a nation. It increases or decreases monthly, depending if the controller is orthodox, the province is orthodox, and the tolerance of the true faith/heresies/pagans of the controller. Obviously also with events. Maximum is 100 per patriarch.

Ecumenical Patriarch

The Ecumenical Patriarch is, in gameplay terms, the main Patriarch and has special actions that affect every patriarch. The Ecumenical Patriarch is the patriarch of Constantinople. But if a nation controls 4 non-Ecumenical Patriarchs, their capital is a Patriarch and they are orthodox, they can reclaim the Ecumenical Patriarchy and their capital Patriarch will transform into the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Patriarch Autonomy

There are 3 status: low, medium, high. At high, you get a discount in all actions except the steal province from another Patriarch and a relations penalty with orthodox countries. In medium there are no effects. At low, the Ecumenical Patriarch can use your PI to perform their own actions. The Ecumenical Patriarch has no autonomy. The status is decided by distance to the Ecumenical Patriarch and relative strength of the controllers.

Patriarch Regions

Each Patriarch have some provinces assigned to them. Those provinces give a small part of their income to their Patriarch Controller if they are not controlled by him, so having big regions is a boost for small Patriarch Controller. If you control a patriarch, his regions controlled by you will have lower unrest and higher taxes. Provinces of uncontrolled patriarchs will have lower taxes and higher unrest. Those benefits and penalties only happen if province is orthodox.


Special actions

All patriarchs:

-Take province from other patriarch: Cost: 100 P.I., opinion penalty with controller.

-Start theological dispute: Cost 50 PI, gain prestige, opinion penalty with a random patriarch controller.

-Appoint new bishops: Cost 50 PI, general autonomy reduction in orthodox provinces.

-Reform the local rite: Cost 60 PI, +2 ToTF for 7 years, -1 unrest in orthodox provinces belonging to that patriarch, opinion penalty with ecumenical controller.

-Regulate missionary activity: Cost 75 PI, +2% missionary strength for 7 years.

-Claim Ecumenical Patriarchy by force: Cost: Total of 200 PI, gain “Enforce Ecumenical Reclaim” casus belli against Ecumenical Controller

-Claim Ecumenical Patriarchy peacefully: Explained in Ecumenical Patriarch section

-Move patriarch to capital: Cost: 75 PI

Ecumenical Patriarch:

-Create Patriarchate: Cost:100 PI, you select the main province and 5 or more provinces to their patriarch region. Opinion penalty with patriarch controllers that you steal provinces. You have to have "King" rank.

-Remove Patriarchate: Cost 100 PI, massive opinion penalty with the controller and +5 unrest in orthodox provinces.

-Declare the Pope heretic: Cost: 75 PI, opinion penalty with catholic nations, opinion bonus with non-catholic christians, prestige bonus

-Give province to patriarch: Cost: 80PI

Also generic actions are just half of the cost

Uncared patriarchs

In non orthodox nations, managing the orthodox religious politics was not a priority and the patriarchs who lived there could see their power dramatically reduced. To show this, patriarchs in non-orthodox nations will have the "neglected" status by default, reducing their PI gain, making them unable to perform actions and making their autonomy low. If as a non-orthodox nations you want to care about the patriarch, you can change status, with a MP, money, ToTTF, local autonomy and piety cost.

Notes

-Non-orthodox provinces can be patriarch provinces and can form part of a patriarch region, but they won’t provide any benefit of penalty.

-Non-orthodox nations can be a patriarch controller.

-You gain more PI if the patriarch is controlled by a pagan than an heretic

-Control patriarchs gives prestige.

-You gain more PI if you are a theocracy.

-You can't create patriarchates in non-orthodox provinces

Coptic mechanics: -No longer needed, since they *luckily* got mechanics in 1.18-

The copts also had patriarchates, so this system could work for them as well. There would be a few changes:

-Ecumenical Patriarch renamed Coptic Pope

-The starting patriarchs would be in Ethiopia, Alexandria, Armenia, Nubia and Syria

-You can build monasteries in your provinces. A monastery will have a possitive effect on your PI, devotion and income, but a negative effect on you manpower.

-Since the Coptic religion was more closed and there are few Coptic nations, there would be some special actions to invest your PI:

-Confiscate art from churches: 50 PI, 25 prestige

-Create church tax: 60 PI, +30% income for 5 years

-Make the patriarch swear fealty to the king: 55 PI, +30 legitimacy

-Use the patriarch to encourage people: Only in wars. 75 PI, +20% manpower recovery for 5 years, -0,1 war exhaustion each month for 5 years.

-Calm Coptic vassals: 70 PI, -25% liberty desire of Coptic vassals

Pentarchy

This is a special mechanic for both orthodox and Coptic religions.

At the start there are no orthodox patriarchs in Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria ( I know, they existed, but they were almost irrelevant ) and there are no Coptic patriarchs in Jerusalem, Constantinople and Rome. But if you conquer any of these provinces, the patriarch will spawn automatically and he will receive his historical region. If a Coptic nation restores Jerusalem, for example, an orthodox nation won’t be able to do it and viceversa.

Mending the schism:

Like CK2, you should be able to mend the schism in all old Christian religions:

Orthodox: You must have 4 pentarchy provinces, including Rome and Constantinople. Requires Empire Rank.

Catholic: Constantinople must be Catholic, you must control 5 patriarchates ( Coptic or Orthodox ) Requires Empire Rank.

Coptic: Control Rome and Constantinople, every province in a Coptic patriarch’s region must be Coptic, control 2 orthodox patriarchs. Also requires Empire Rank.

When the schism is mended, all Christian provinces in nations with your religion will convert, other Christians will receive a decision to convert, and nations that border you will get an event that allows them to convert ( Protestants included ).

Idea changes and custom setup:

Ideas:


In historical orthodox countries, there should be national idea increasing PI in controlled patriarchs. For example:

-Substitue Russian idea " Abolish the Mestnichestvo " Instead put the idea " Sustainer of orthodoxy" that gives +3.5 yearly PI and maybe +1 tolerance of the true faith.

-Byzantine idea " Restore the Ecumenical Patriarchy " should give +2 missionary strength instead of 3. To replace the missing point, they could add +5 yearly PI.

Of course more orthodox countries could have ideas like this, but I can't think more now. Any suggestion is welcome :)

Custom setup:

As the patriarchs are tied to certain provinces, the custom setup would be problematic. If there are no orthodox countries, there would be no patriarchs. If there are, we will get patriarchs in all orthodox capitals. There have to be at least 4 patriarchs. If there aren't 4 orthodox capitals, other random orthodox provinces would get one assigned randomly. The EP would also be random, if possible in Constantinople.
This would work the same to coptic, with the minimum of 3 patriarchs and Coptic Pope in Alexandria if possible.

Archievements:
Of course, when a religious mechanic is released, there should be at least one archievement for it. These are my thoughts:
-My religion: Control every patriarch as an orthodox nation.
-The forgotten strike back: Mend the schism as a coptic nation
-The 4th crusade: As catholic Venice, mend the schism
-We are the true orthodox: As Russia, let the patriarch of Moscow become the Ecumanical Patriarch
-Cyril and Methodius: Convert Bohemia to orthodoxy

Now I think this post is finished, but if you want to add something just tell it

Please say what you think about this :)
 
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AndrejK

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You mean the province east of the city of Kerch? ... yeah a good idea. Possibly the one Criema under Kiev? ..
Cyprus was nkt historically under Constantinople in was umder Antioch autonomously... but having a oneprovince patriarchate wouldn't make sense...maybe make Antioch Orthodox there are some Antiochian Greeks till this day ...
 

Basileios Makedon

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You mean the province east of the city of Kerch? ... yeah a good idea. Possibly the one Criema under Kiev? ..
Cyprus was nkt historically under Constantinople in was umder Antioch autonomously... but having a oneprovince patriarchate wouldn't make sense...maybe make Antioch Orthodox there are some Antiochian Greeks till this day ...
I said in the main post that I would priorize gameplay over history. A one province patriarch hasn't a lot of sense, and I don't think that Antioch should be orthodox
 

AndrejK

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As with Coptics we could use the variation of the system above.
The Oriental Orthodox were pretty much independent from one another so for the Coptic religion we could leave the Patriarch autonomy out.
The Oriental Orthodox had smaller Dioceses (at least the Syrians) and so with the influence pie we could say -3dioceses /province if Coptic owned by Coptic
-2dioceses/province if Coptic owned by noncoptic
-1 diocese/province if noncoptic owned by Coptic.
Provinces with Patriarch have +2 dioceses even if controlled by heathens and only 1 diocese remains there if it is converted to a heathen religion.
A new feature can be monasteries since the Copts were the first to start with the idea.
Give them chance to build and maintain monasteries.The monasteries are worth an extra ddiocese in the influence pie. From having monasteries you could get extra admin or diplo points/month. .and stronger missionary strength. But maintaining it would lower the income tax
 

moscal

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-Declare the Pope heretic- Cost: 75 PI, opinion penalty with catholic nations, opinion bonus with non-catholic christians, prestige bonus

But it was already
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

Meybe better west-east ecumenism?

Pentarchy need more restrictions eg. time. In XVIII century renewal of unity was impossible.
 

Basileios Makedon

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AndrejK

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I think it's easier to tie it to cities. If the Ottomans conquer Morea, the Patriarch of Constantinople wouldn't suddenly obey them.

or maybe make non-orthodox countries unable to use the Patriarch influence ... this would be historically more accurate ( since as you said the the Patriarch won't obey the Ottomans but he also won't obey lets say Trebizond if they still keep the one province. ..)
He will just represent the Orthodox Greek population in Ottoman Empire. .
 

AndrejK

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Don't think the Schism will be brought up at the Eu4 time
QUOTE="Basileios Makedon, post: 19823528, member: 994389"]Something like bringing the schism topic up again.[/QUOTE]
Don
 

Basileios Makedon

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Don't think the Schism will be brought up at the Eu4 time
QUOTE="Basileios Makedon, post: 19823528, member: 994389"]Something like bringing the schism topic up again.
Don[/QUOTE]
Well if an orthodox country grows a lot they may contest the catholic hegemony in europe by bringing the dispute again.
 

123e55

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Kk, this topic is a bit(very) old, but hope this will be taken in consideration :D
 

Atlantians

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Yes, Wiz has read the suggestion, it has a 'helpful' from him.

Kind of a shame they made it so you can't see whole posted the helpful/agree/disagree though. Or is there some way to see that I'm missing?
 

123e55

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They tend to read the suggestion subforum, doing that might actually earn you an infraction.
Well, if wiz saw it then why he didn't say his opinion? I think it very good what Atlantias did :)
Oh, come on , you all know this would be an awesome addition!
 
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FleetingRain

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Kind of a shame they made it so you can't see whole posted the helpful/agree/disagree though. Or is there some way to see that I'm missing?

Hover your profile name in the upper right corner of the page and go to "Ratings Received".
 
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AndrejK

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Solution for question about who gets to exercise the influence of Ecumenical Patriarch while Constantinople falls to Ottos.
The Dhimmi estate. (Ideally if divided into Rum, Armenian and Jewish). So if the Ottomans conquer Constantinople the Ecumenical Patriarch will be controlled by Ottoman Rum estate(boosting their influence among Ottoman estates). If he be controlled by e.g. Trebizond, Ottoman Rum estate may get -10 loyalty.
 

AndrejK

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New events for Orthodox (esp. Russia).
If religious reform (events pop up quite often), one cause maybe that "Old Believers" pop up in the province, mainly those with low development. Of course your aim is to eradicate them ASAP