Patriachates: a flavour mechanic for orthodox and coptic religions

Patriachates: a flavour mechanic for orthodox and coptic religions

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Basileios Makedon

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Ok, this post is going to be long, so prepare yourselves

Orthodox Christianity. One of the biggest religions in the world, adopted by very important countries like Russia or Byzantium. And how it’s represented in the game? 5 events and a lineal mechanic that sometimes doesn’t make any sense. In CK2 the patriarchs were represented well, but not in EU4. So I suggest this mechanic to add flavour to orthodoxy and maybe Coptic, because Coptic also had patriarchs:

Different Patriarchs and Patriarch control:

Obviously, there wasn’t a Patriarch in every orthodox nation in game. Perm hadn’t a Patriarch. So I think that there should be determinate patriarch tied to certain provinces. I think there should be the following at game start, not for historical reasons, just for gameplay reasons:

-Patriarch of Constantinople: Constantinople

-Patriarch of Bulgaria: Tarnovo

-Patriarch of Serbia: Srbija

-Patriarch of Wallachia: Muntenia

-Patriarch of Georgia: Kartli

-Patriarch of Ruthenia: Kiev

-Patriarch of Russia: Moscow

The nation who control a patriarch province will control the patriarch and will gain access to some special action explained below.

Patriarch influence:

This is a value tied to a Patriarch, and not to a nation. It increases or decreases monthly, depending if the controller is orthodox, the province is orthodox, and the tolerance of the true faith/heresies/pagans of the controller. Obviously also with events. Maximum is 100 per patriarch.

Ecumenical Patriarch

The Ecumenical Patriarch is, in gameplay terms, the main Patriarch and has special actions that affect every patriarch. The Ecumenical Patriarch is the patriarch of Constantinople. But if a nation controls 4 non-Ecumenical Patriarchs, their capital is a Patriarch and they are orthodox, they can reclaim the Ecumenical Patriarchy and their capital Patriarch will transform into the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Patriarch Autonomy

There are 3 status: low, medium, high. At high, you get a discount in all actions except the steal province from another Patriarch and a relations penalty with orthodox countries. In medium there are no effects. At low, the Ecumenical Patriarch can use your PI to perform their own actions. The Ecumenical Patriarch has no autonomy. The status is decided by distance to the Ecumenical Patriarch and relative strength of the controllers.

Patriarch Regions

Each Patriarch have some provinces assigned to them. Those provinces give a small part of their income to their Patriarch Controller if they are not controlled by him, so having big regions is a boost for small Patriarch Controller. If you control a patriarch, his regions controlled by you will have lower unrest and higher taxes. Provinces of uncontrolled patriarchs will have lower taxes and higher unrest. Those benefits and penalties only happen if province is orthodox.


Special actions

All patriarchs:

-Take province from other patriarch: Cost: 100 P.I., opinion penalty with controller.

-Start theological dispute: Cost 50 PI, gain prestige, opinion penalty with a random patriarch controller.

-Appoint new bishops: Cost 50 PI, general autonomy reduction in orthodox provinces.

-Reform the local rite: Cost 60 PI, +2 ToTF for 7 years, -1 unrest in orthodox provinces belonging to that patriarch, opinion penalty with ecumenical controller.

-Regulate missionary activity: Cost 75 PI, +2% missionary strength for 7 years.

-Claim Ecumenical Patriarchy by force: Cost: Total of 200 PI, gain “Enforce Ecumenical Reclaim” casus belli against Ecumenical Controller

-Claim Ecumenical Patriarchy peacefully: Explained in Ecumenical Patriarch section

-Move patriarch to capital: Cost: 75 PI

Ecumenical Patriarch:

-Create Patriarchate: Cost:100 PI, you select the main province and 5 or more provinces to their patriarch region. Opinion penalty with patriarch controllers that you steal provinces. You have to have "King" rank.

-Remove Patriarchate: Cost 100 PI, massive opinion penalty with the controller and +5 unrest in orthodox provinces.

-Declare the Pope heretic: Cost: 75 PI, opinion penalty with catholic nations, opinion bonus with non-catholic christians, prestige bonus

-Give province to patriarch: Cost: 80PI

Also generic actions are just half of the cost

Uncared patriarchs

In non orthodox nations, managing the orthodox religious politics was not a priority and the patriarchs who lived there could see their power dramatically reduced. To show this, patriarchs in non-orthodox nations will have the "neglected" status by default, reducing their PI gain, making them unable to perform actions and making their autonomy low. If as a non-orthodox nations you want to care about the patriarch, you can change status, with a MP, money, ToTTF, local autonomy and piety cost.

Notes

-Non-orthodox provinces can be patriarch provinces and can form part of a patriarch region, but they won’t provide any benefit of penalty.

-Non-orthodox nations can be a patriarch controller.

-You gain more PI if the patriarch is controlled by a pagan than an heretic

-Control patriarchs gives prestige.

-You gain more PI if you are a theocracy.

-You can't create patriarchates in non-orthodox provinces

Coptic mechanics: -No longer needed, since they *luckily* got mechanics in 1.18-

The copts also had patriarchates, so this system could work for them as well. There would be a few changes:

-Ecumenical Patriarch renamed Coptic Pope

-The starting patriarchs would be in Ethiopia, Alexandria, Armenia, Nubia and Syria

-You can build monasteries in your provinces. A monastery will have a possitive effect on your PI, devotion and income, but a negative effect on you manpower.

-Since the Coptic religion was more closed and there are few Coptic nations, there would be some special actions to invest your PI:

-Confiscate art from churches: 50 PI, 25 prestige

-Create church tax: 60 PI, +30% income for 5 years

-Make the patriarch swear fealty to the king: 55 PI, +30 legitimacy

-Use the patriarch to encourage people: Only in wars. 75 PI, +20% manpower recovery for 5 years, -0,1 war exhaustion each month for 5 years.

-Calm Coptic vassals: 70 PI, -25% liberty desire of Coptic vassals

Pentarchy

This is a special mechanic for both orthodox and Coptic religions.

At the start there are no orthodox patriarchs in Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria ( I know, they existed, but they were almost irrelevant ) and there are no Coptic patriarchs in Jerusalem, Constantinople and Rome. But if you conquer any of these provinces, the patriarch will spawn automatically and he will receive his historical region. If a Coptic nation restores Jerusalem, for example, an orthodox nation won’t be able to do it and viceversa.

Mending the schism:

Like CK2, you should be able to mend the schism in all old Christian religions:

Orthodox: You must have 4 pentarchy provinces, including Rome and Constantinople. Requires Empire Rank.

Catholic: Constantinople must be Catholic, you must control 5 patriarchates ( Coptic or Orthodox ) Requires Empire Rank.

Coptic: Control Rome and Constantinople, every province in a Coptic patriarch’s region must be Coptic, control 2 orthodox patriarchs. Also requires Empire Rank.

When the schism is mended, all Christian provinces in nations with your religion will convert, other Christians will receive a decision to convert, and nations that border you will get an event that allows them to convert ( Protestants included ).

Idea changes and custom setup:

Ideas:


In historical orthodox countries, there should be national idea increasing PI in controlled patriarchs. For example:

-Substitue Russian idea " Abolish the Mestnichestvo " Instead put the idea " Sustainer of orthodoxy" that gives +3.5 yearly PI and maybe +1 tolerance of the true faith.

-Byzantine idea " Restore the Ecumenical Patriarchy " should give +2 missionary strength instead of 3. To replace the missing point, they could add +5 yearly PI.

Of course more orthodox countries could have ideas like this, but I can't think more now. Any suggestion is welcome :)

Custom setup:

As the patriarchs are tied to certain provinces, the custom setup would be problematic. If there are no orthodox countries, there would be no patriarchs. If there are, we will get patriarchs in all orthodox capitals. There have to be at least 4 patriarchs. If there aren't 4 orthodox capitals, other random orthodox provinces would get one assigned randomly. The EP would also be random, if possible in Constantinople.
This would work the same to coptic, with the minimum of 3 patriarchs and Coptic Pope in Alexandria if possible.

Archievements:
Of course, when a religious mechanic is released, there should be at least one archievement for it. These are my thoughts:
-My religion: Control every patriarch as an orthodox nation.
-The forgotten strike back: Mend the schism as a coptic nation
-The 4th crusade: As catholic Venice, mend the schism
-We are the true orthodox: As Russia, let the patriarch of Moscow become the Ecumanical Patriarch
-Cyril and Methodius: Convert Bohemia to orthodoxy

Now I think this post is finished, but if you want to add something just tell it

Please say what you think about this :)
 
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Basileios Makedon

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It's a step in the right direction. However, I have a few suggestions.

One: "Mend the Great Schism" isn't really viable. Pious Catholics or reformers would never accept it in this time frame; even in CK2 it was a stretch, but the differences, divides, and bitterness of the past weren't as pronounced back then. By 1444, the only 'mending' was the efforts, unsuccessfully, of the Byzantine Emperors to convert to Catholicism to stave off extinction.

Two: There should be two modifiers. Patriarchal Influence is nation-wide, and only affects Orthodox nations with an autocephalous Patriarch. Moral Authority is global, and comes from the power of the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pentarchs, and the number and/or development level of Orthodox nations. If the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pentarchs are controlled by an Orthodox nation, you gain bonuses to your missionary strength, ToTF, and morale. If they are not, you get jack-sh*t. This promotes cooperation between the endangered species in this game that is Orthodoxy, and gives an immediate short term bonus to them. Nations without a Patriarch can spend max Influence on gaining one.

Three: The Ecumenical Patriarch never, ever, EVER leaves Constantinople. As it was and is in real life, so must it be in-game.

Four: Only one autocephalous Patriarch per nation, unless they hold the Pentarchs, which even then only offers one-fifth the bonus of a normal Patriarch. This is both for balancing Patriarchal Authority and to place more emphasis on the Doctrine of Two Swords, which leads to...

Five: The Doctrine of Two Swords, known to the Byzantines as Symphonia, a Decision which increases stability by 1, lowers Stability Cost and monthly Patriarchal Influence, but at the immediate cost of Prestige and Admin Points, and permanent increases unrest of 1. Creates dynamic events related to maintaining or revoking the Doctrine. Decision and events to Revoke the Doctrine of Two Swords grant Prestige at the cost of 2 stability and an immediate loss of all Patriachal Influence.

That's all I've got right now.
First of all, thanks. Now, the replies:
1-"Mend the schism" it's completely unhistorical. I know perfectly. But imagine that an orthodox nation manages to restore the pentarchy at that time. The orthodox would proclaim that they united christendom, but the other christians probably wouldn't takes it seriously. So, the effects are moderated and conversion should be a completely optional thing, likely not good for your country.

2-Patriarch Influence is there to represent the influence of the patriarch over the others, so it's tied to a patriarch and not to a nation. As I stated, it is affected by the development and religion of their province, and the tolerance/religion of the controller. Example: After 1453, the russian patriarch was more powerful than the Ecumenical Patriarch, because Russians used it to increase their power over orthodox minors.

3-It's veeery difficult to manage to control 4 patriarchs at fully 100% PI, because this wasn't a decision taken historically. I added it as a way of orthodox countries of avoid ottoman influence.

4-As I say at the start of the post, there wasn't a patriarch in every country. And empires, like Ottoman and Russia, controlled more than 1 patriarch. In-game currently there is one patriarch per nation ( I suppose ), so what happen to that patriarch when the country is annexed? It's ereased? That's not very realist

5-I like that
 

Starki113r

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First of all, thanks. Now, the replies:
1-"Mend the schism" it's completely unhistorical. I know perfectly. But imagine that an orthodox nation manages to restore the pentarchy at that time. The orthodox would proclaim that they united christendom, but the other christians probably wouldn't takes it seriously. So, the effects are moderated and conversion should be a completely optional thing, likely not good for your country.

2-Patriarch Influence is there to represent the influence of the patriarch over the others, so it's tied to a patriarch and not to a nation. As I stated, it is affected by the development and religion of their province, and the tolerance/religion of the controller. Example: After 1453, the russian patriarch was more powerful than the Ecumenical Patriarch, because Russians used it to increase their power over orthodox minors.

3-It's veeery difficult to manage to control 4 patriarchs at fully 100% PI, because this wasn't a decision taken historically. I added it as a way of orthodox countries of avoid ottoman influence.

4-As I say at the start of the post, there wasn't a patriarch in every country. And empires, like Ottoman and Russia, controlled more than 1 patriarch. In-game currently there is one patriarch per nation ( I suppose ), so what happen to that patriarch when the country is annexed? It's ereased? That's not very realist

5-I like that

I'm glad to foment discussion.

1) If anything, it should be less "Mend the Schism" and more "Papal Authority in Question." Instead of switching religions, it should provide a bonus to Missionary Strength, Patriarchal Influence, ToTF, and lower Global Unrest for all Orthodox nations should the Pentarchy be fully restored and converted. Of course, the Pentarchy modifier alone is a decent bonus.

4) It's less about them ceasing to exist and more about them being brought under the authority of the autocephalous Patriarch of the given nation. They may very well still exist, but their power is just as much more in name than in practice, similar to the situation faced by the Ottoman-controlled Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
 

Basileios Makedon

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I'm glad to foment discussion.

1) If anything, it should be less "Mend the Schism" and more "Papal Authority in Question." Instead of switching religions, it should provide a bonus to Missionary Strength, Patriarchal Influence, ToTF, and lower Global Unrest for all Orthodox nations should the Pentarchy be fully restored and converted. Of course, the Pentarchy modifier alone is a decent bonus.

4) It's less about them ceasing to exist and more about them being brought under the authority of the autocephalous Patriarch of the given nation. They may very well still exist, but their power is just as much more in name than in practice, similar to the situation faced by the Ottoman-controlled Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
Round 2! :p
1. Of course, all those bonuses are good, but all catholic countries would see the pope with less respect and some of them (few) would accept the restoration and accept the patriarch system.
2. I don't see that "vassalization" of the patriarch work. The patriarch would be almost powerless because it's not the capital or the annexer is a pagan/heathen and doesn't want him taking iniciatives. That's represented with PI. And there was no patriarch on let's say Yaroslav.

I hope you reply:)
 

AndrejK

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What I myself would propose is that instead of the Patriarch authority we get two bars and a pie chart.. Also in the religious map view if you click Orthodox you should get a map of Patriarchal Territories showing which province is assigned to which Patriairchate
  1. Patriarch Autonomy - if it is low then practically it is controlled pretty much by Constantinople, if it is high the national church is pretty much independent.
  2. Church Authority- if it is low then the religion isnt very imoprtant if it is high then it is..
Having low both PA and CA results in the national Church being a prolonged tool of Ecumneical Patriairch in Constantinople, Having low CA and high PA means Church is a tool of the state and canserve national interests. Having a low PA and high CA might result in tensions between church and State, while having both high will be good...

The patriarch influence can be shown by number of eparchies (2/Orthodox province held by Orthodox state,1/ Orthodox province in non-orthodox state, 0.5 / non-orthodox province held by Orthoodx state. (it can shown in a pie chart similar to showing power in trade nodes...

e.g. lets say we want show who has most influence in Serbian partriarchate after Montenegro is released...
  • Bosnia has 3 eparchies (3 Orthodox provinces while being Catholic...)
  • Montenegro has 2 (1 O province held by O)
  • Serbia has 8 (4 O held by O).
  • Ottomans have 1 (1 O held by a muslim country)
The country who has most % controls the Patriarchate. To change canonical jurisdicitions (that is to make a province part of another Patriarchate) you need to control Ecumenical Patriairch.
province with a seat of one of the 4 senior Patriarchs- Constantinople,Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria ) gets a +3 eparchies .
 

Basileios Makedon

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Patriarch Autonomy - if it is low then practically it is controlled pretty much by Constantinople, if it is high the national church is pretty much independent

Instead of a value, it could be 3 status (high, medium, low)
At high, you get a discount in all actions, but a relations penalty with orthodox country.
At low, the Ecumenical Patriarch can use your PI to perform their actions.
The status would depend on the relative strength of the controllers and the distance between the Ecumenical Patriarch and them.
 

Basileios Makedon

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The patriarch influence can be shown by number of eparchies (2/Orthodox province held by Orthodox state,1/ Orthodox province in non-orthodox state, 0.5 / non-orthodox province held by Orthoodx state. (it can shown in a pie chart similar to showing power in trade nodes...
I think it's easier to tie it to cities. If the Ottomans conquer Morea, the Patriarch of Constantinople wouldn't suddenly obey them.
 

Basileios Makedon

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Church Authority- if it is low then the religion isnt very imoprtant if it is high then it is
Well that's the Patriarch Authority. I think we can keep it, and it would have an additional effect to PI and Patriarch Autonomy status. In the other hand, too many values can be confusing and the religion isn't followed by a huge number of countries....
 

Basileios Makedon

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To change canonical jurisdicitions (that is to make a province part of another Patriarchate) you need to control Ecumenical Patriairch.
Instead I think you should need +50 relations with the Ecumenical controller and 100 PI in at least one patriarch.
 
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AndrejK

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I think it's easier to tie it to cities. If the Ottomans conquer Morea, the Patriarch of Constantinople wouldn't suddenly obey them.
Option two... (on my other thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-religious-map.876015/ I proposed to change the religion in some of the provinces).
The province with a seat of one of the 4 senior Patriarchs- Constantinople,Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria ) gets a +3 eparchies ONLY IF OWNED BY AN ORTHODOX NATION, else +1

Below is a proposal for Canonicla Terriotries: Standart Orthodox colour is for Ecumenical Patriarch,red is Bulgaria,orange Serbia,brown Vlachia/Romania/Dacia? ,light blue Kiev, pink Russia,purple Georgia, blue is Antioch (only Cyprus is Orthoodx in that Patriarchate). Jeruslaem and Alexandria might be installed, at beginning the have only per 2 eparchies
patriarchs.png
 

AndrejK

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Copti can have Patriarchates for Alexandria (Coptic), Anitoch (Syriac),Entchiadzin (Armenian), one in Ethiopia one in India (and possibly one in Nubia)
 

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Option two... (on my other thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-religious-map.876015/ I proposed to change the religion in some of the provinces).
The province with a seat of one of the 4 senior Patriarchs- Constantinople,Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria ) gets a +3 eparchies ONLY IF OWNED BY AN ORTHODOX NATION, else +1

Below is a proposal for Canonicla Terriotries: Standart Orthodox colour is for Ecumenical Patriarch,red is Bulgaria,orange Serbia,brown Vlachia/Romania/Dacia? ,light blue Kiev, pink Russia,purple Georgia, blue is Antioch (only Cyprus is Orthoodx in that Patriarchate). Jeruslaem and Alexandria might be installed, at beginning the have only per 2 eparchiesView attachment 135930
About the map, I think Mantrega should be in Georgia and Cyprus in Constantinople. The antioch patriarch should be formable