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Secret Master

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Africa is ill-represented in the first place

If it makes you feel better, it has never been represented well in any Paradox game. Even in EU1, North Africa was just a poor region where Spanish would continue their Reconquista for the lulz (if they even bothered). There are complicated reasons for this, but it all boils down to either the area is too easy to pacify (unrest in Algeria in the 19th Century? What's that?), is so poor in money and manpower that it cannot defend itself, or some combination of both. EU4 has tried to make Africa as a whole more vibrant, but the great irony of the entire Paradox line of strategy games is that their Euro-centrism makes it hard to depict the complicated nuances of places like Africa and the Middle East. (And there are times when it goes the other way, and you see North Africans doing crazy stuff, like conquering Italy and Islamicizing it within a decade or so....)

In CK2, it's not quite so bad (there are some nice counties if the AI can be bothered to utilize them well), but I kind of agree with your post about the Qabila that there is a lack of depth in the Islamic world, which causes them to either be too powerful or too weak (depending on current expansion).

I do have a question for you, though. Let's postulate a medieval world (say, around 1270) where "crusaders" under Saint Louis actually seize Tunisia and conquer the entire region (per holy war CB in CK2) and not the just city itself. There are obviously tribes living beyond the frontier of the de jure duchy (CK2's unmodded map), as well as an entire political apparatus left over from the previous rulers. How would a bunch of feudal Western Europeans even begin the process of pacifying or crushing the tribes that border the region? Is it even feasible? And if not, then are we back to the problem of permanent terra incognita being used to prevent bizarre conquests and ahistorical economic development?

EU: Rome had mechanics for barbarians in unowned provinces. They were unplayable factions that would build up barbarian power (read as population) and then spawn barbarian hordes that would attack settled (read as owned) areas. Punitive expeditions could be undertaken to wipe them out before they launched their own attacks (a steady source of slaves). Actually colonizing the provinces was difficult and time consuming (you might not colonize the map before the game was over), and it had some drawbacks (some players preferred farming barbarians for slaves and freeman to colonizing the interior of Europe as adding provinces hurt research speed without corresponding increases in citizens).

This worked in depicting Germania and the periodic migrations/invasions of the Roman world. It also worked, because it more or less took these provinces and population out of circulation. They existed on the map, but you really couldn't conquer them with any real speed. This is one of the issues at play: even if you added the entire Sahara with tribes and nomads and whatnot, you open the Sahara to conquest, as any county on the map is available for ownership by anyone else (even with penalties if your government doesn't mesh with the holdings in question)
 
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elvain

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the great irony of the entire Paradox line of strategy games is that their Euro-centrism makes it hard to depict the complicated nuances of places like Africa and the Middle East. (And there are times when it goes the other way, and you see North Africans doing crazy stuff, like conquering Italy and Islamicizing it within a decade or so....)

In CK2, it's not quite so bad (there are some nice counties if the AI can be bothered to utilize them well), but I kind of agree with your post about the Qabila that there is a lack of depth in the Islamic world, which causes them to either be too powerful or too weak (depending on current expansion).
Honestly I think that certain degree of Euro-centrism is natural and I wouldn't mind it much. The problem is that the region is underrepresented on all fields - the map is terrible (cubic provinces which don't even try to cover the fact that nobody gives a damn about geography of the region) and except repetitive hajj events and decadence there's no flavour whatsoever. This for the main concurents of Europeans. Yet I don't think it's incompetence or even intention, in their DLC they just didn't probably have thought about future development and flavours offered in other DLCs.

I do have a question for you, though. Let's postulate a medieval world (say, around 1270) where "crusaders" under Saint Louis actually seize Tunisia and conquer the entire region (per holy war CB in CK2) and not the just city itself. There are obviously tribes living beyond the frontier of the de jure duchy (CK2's unmodded map), as well as an entire political apparatus left over from the previous rulers. How would a bunch of feudal Western Europeans even begin the process of pacifying or crushing the tribes that border the region? Is it even feasible? And if not, then are we back to the problem of permanent terra incognita being used to prevent bizarre conquests and ahistorical economic development?
It depends. In the late 13th century probably not. But a century and a half earlier I believe that such a crusader state could have been successfull to some extent (it isn't much farther from Sicily or Iberia with developed muslim states), just like it was - to some extent - lively in the Holy Land - but only if it had enough Europeans to counter/balance the power of local tribes. I can imagine they would probably adapt to the new situation until another strong power emerges which would be closer to their likings.

EU: Rome had mechanics for barbarians in unowned provinces. They were unplayable factions that would build up barbarian power (read as population) and then spawn barbarian hordes that would attack settled (read as owned) areas. Punitive expeditions could be undertaken to wipe them out before they launched their own attacks (a steady source of slaves). Actually colonizing the provinces was difficult and time consuming (you might not colonize the map before the game was over), and it had some drawbacks (some players preferred farming barbarians for slaves and freeman to colonizing the interior of Europe as adding provinces hurt research speed without corresponding increases in citizens).

This worked in depicting Germania and the periodic migrations/invasions of the Roman world. It also worked, because it more or less took these provinces and population out of circulation. They existed on the map, but you really couldn't conquer them with any real speed. This is one of the issues at play: even if you added the entire Sahara with tribes and nomads and whatnot, you open the Sahara to conquest, as any county on the map is available for ownership by anyone else (even with penalties if your government doesn't mesh with the holdings in question)
Yup, that's a nice concept, which could work for, perhaps Siberia, or the parts of West Africa which had very low political organization and were being raided for slaves.
As for the Sahara or other desert aras of the Middle East, I don't think this could work.

The problem here is that unlike other province types, if a nomad province is conquered by sedentary (feudal, tribal, iqta or republic), it ceases to exist as nomadic province and suddently becomes sedentary province. In reality, however, the tribe remained there.
In this case the nomadic provinces should work like any other provinces - if a nomad land is taken in de-jure territorial war and the original tribe is completely defeated, the tribe should stay as tributary in all provinces which have nomadic terrain (steppe, desert, possibly also plains), and the feudal/whatever other lord should take only those provinces which don't fit to nomadic way of life.
 

Surimi

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I think Africa is one of the better candidates for the expansion of the existing trade route system, due to the incredible wealth coming from the trans-saharan gold/salt trade. The main problem with it is that it would be extremely easy to control given that there is currently only one route to the coast, and would disproportionately benefit the feudal/iqta Berbers over the tribal subsaharans. The obvious solution to the former would be to expand the habitable part of the subsaharan Africa eastwards to cover the Taureg settlements in what is now Niger, and then have a second route across the Sahara leading up into Tunisia.

Ideally, I think Mali should also have some kind of unique building to represent the gold mines there. Most of the gold in the old world prior to the discovery of the Americas was mined in West Africa, it was a unique and incredible resource, and certainly played a huge role in creating the absolutely giant empires which sprung up in the region. Throw in a couple more mercenary companies (the Taureg band?) and they should be well equipped to defend themselves.

As for North Africa, I'm not so sure. A lot of these proposals seem very well thought out to me though.
 
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Secret Master

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The problem here is that unlike other province types, if a nomad province is conquered by sedentary (feudal, tribal, iqta or republic), it ceases to exist as nomadic province and suddently becomes sedentary province. In reality, however, the tribe remained there.

Maybe not instantly sedentary, but it suddenly becomes empty and devoid of population until a holding better than a fort can be built there. The nomads just go be nomad somewhere else, which is a little weird.

"Come, we must find better pasture land."

"But why?"

"The Franks have built a fort here, and we lost the war."

"So, can't we just move our sheep twenty miles from the fort where they can't see us?"

"No. Concealed within his fortress, the lord of Franks sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame."

"So, we're moving to Mongolia then?"

"Essentially, yes."
 
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